Don't know how to classify this hand (bad bead, major suck out, ???)

[LRAO]

I'm in the CO with QTs. LAP in MP open raises, folded to me, I call, button folds, SB calls, folded back to raiser.

Flop:

QTT

SB checks, MP bets, I raise (to chase out the other T, maybe AT or KT), both players call.

Turn

J

Checked to me, I bet, both players call.

River:

J

Checked to me, I check, knowing that someone has a J.

Showdown:

MP (pre-flop raiser) as AA.
I have Ts full of Qs.
SB has JT, Js full of Ts.

Thoughts?

[DeeJ]

Similar thing happened to me today. Turned and Rivered Aces made my Jacks go down proverbial toilet and lost loads to some random AT holding on a JTx flop. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[steveyz]

You shouldn't be cold calling with this hand even against a LAP. 3-bet him if you can isolate him, fold otherwise. On the flop, raising is ok, but it definitely will not "drive out" the other T, even T2o is going nowhere. Raise this flop if you believe that you won't be bet into again on the turn, otherise wait until the turn to raise to get more money in.

I have no idea what SB was attempting to do, but he played this horribly. You lost a lot less money than you should have.

[LRAO]

[ QUOTE ]
You shouldn't be cold calling with this hand even against a LAP. 3-bet him if you can isolate him, fold otherwise. On the flop, raising is ok, but it definitely will not "drive out" the other T, even T2o is going nowhere. Raise this flop if you believe that you won't be bet into again on the turn, otherise wait until the turn to raise to get more money in.

I have no idea what SB was attempting to do, but he played this horribly. You lost a lot less money than you should have.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you in that:

A. I shouldn't have called and
B. I should have 3-bet to isolate.

But to "justify" A., I will say that I did not have a lot of respect for him.

I felt that the SB was holding some sort of paint/draw. I felt he had the J based on HOW he checked the river. I felt a check-raise attempt was on the horizon.

When I didn't get re-raised on the flop, I knew that the pre-flop raiser didn't like the flop, but still had a strong hand. I had the SB on a KJ, or Tx.

Hope this thought process doesn't upset too many of you.

[DcifrThs]

you don't get it...you're not skilled enough to play that marginal hand even if you don't respect the raiser..FOLD!!!

on the flop you're STILL not understanding that given you're read you need to CALL NOT RAISE!! you want them to hit their draws and you make them think they're getting a good price...they're not because the draws are drawing dead to your boat...this way you'll risk little (very safe flop for your hand) in order to gain much (excessive action on later streets from hands that wouldn't have given it w/o a flop call--they'd suspect a boat quicker and give less action with their completed draw after you raise the flop)...you're just not getting it...

please go and study, play lower limit, and listen to what those who have given you advice had to say.

-Barron

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
I felt he had the J based on HOW he checked the river. I felt a check-raise attempt was on the horizon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I missed it, but I'm assuming this was live play? If not, then I'm wondering how you could tell this.

[ QUOTE ]
Hope this thought process doesn't upset too many of you.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not upsetting anyone. People here are trying to help you, not flame you, when they suggest posting hands like these in the micro or small stakes forum. But if you're going to post here, you better bring your big league fastball, cause this forum is like playing in the show.

That's why I don't post hands here, and post them down in AA ball in the micro forum when I post my limit hands. I play goot. But not goot enough for the mid-high forum.

[LRAO]

Yes, it was live play. I haven't tried online yet. Don't plan to, either.

[astroglide]

you cold-called a raise with QTs. you raised the flopped 2nd nut full. you raised because you thought a ten would fold.

[Dante]

let me clarify what astro implied and my own thoughts:

"you cold-called a raise with QTs" - if you want to isolate the LA player, then 3bet him and get position or fold, you don't want the blinds in with that hand. Notice if you 3-bet, you'll probably win this hand, unless the SB will call 2.5 bets cold with JT.

"you raised the flopped 2nd nut full. you raised because you thought a ten would fold" - if you're raising to fold a ten, you're thinking is waaaaay off. You want the ten to CALL, even if it's AT or KT, let him chase his 3 outs. You want the other crappier tens to fill up, although not twice on the Jack.

After the flop, yes, you took a runner runner perfect perfect beat, but it's your thought process that seems very suspect.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm in the CO with QTs. LAP in MP open raises, folded to me, I call, button folds, SB calls, folded back to raiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is an EASY fold without a read on the raiser. if you have a read and control then you can reraise to isolate as long as you have a malliable table. QTs just ain't too good.

[ QUOTE ]


Flop:

QTT

SB checks, MP bets, I raise (to chase out the other T, maybe AT or KT), both players call.


[/ QUOTE ]

you include no suits. id call here for sure most of the time. the reason is that you DONT WANT to chase out the other ten because that ten is making a mistake playing against you given your respective holdlings. not only is that ten not going to fold to your flop raise, you may cost yourself bets later on by announcing strength so soon. also, you have ALL draws (other than the odd boat draw) drawing 100% dead to you and they are, therefore, not getting the proper price to play. LET THEM IN!!! then rape them on the expensive streets when they hit their dead straight and flush draws.

[ QUOTE ]


Turn

J

Checked to me, I bet, both players call.


[/ QUOTE ]

standard.

[ QUOTE ]

River:

J

Checked to me, I check, knowing that someone has a J.


[/ QUOTE ]

what gave you the idea somebody had a jack? i can agree with your check here since you don't want to be checkraised but you still gave no indication as to why you fear the jack.

[ QUOTE ]


Showdown:

MP (pre-flop raiser) as AA.
I have Ts full of Qs.
SB has JT, Js full of Ts.

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think you're in a great game and lost so little money, relatively speaking, on this hand that you should be thankful they suck so badly.

all in all i think you need to rethink what to do on the flop in these situations. go for the overcalls on the flop and make the draws think they're live. then when they complete and put money in ONLY THEN do they realize how dead they were. and you profit enormously from that simple error of putting money in when dead. and you can also see WHY its so important to lengthen you're odds when there's a possibility of YOU drawing dead.

-Barron