KK OOP

CourtJester · #1 09-07-2005, 11:23 AM

Looking back the table was pretty loose passive, and the villain was 63/0/.9 after about 46. But again im not sure if i knew this at the time. Looking at this stats now, i think id want to fold on the turn but im not sure. So how would u guys play this with a read and without. Comments on all streets appreciated. Also what do u put the villain on?

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG raises, Hero calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

benkath1 · #2 09-07-2005, 11:29 AM

With a read: like that.

Without a read: like that.

You might try searching for KK when an Ace flops. This has been discussed many times before.

gharp · #3 09-07-2005, 11:40 AM

Tough hand because villain could have 98 on the turn and you've got odds to draw out on him. He could also have A9 and you're toast.

I probably play it the same as you, without reads. With the read you ended up having, I don't think you have enough hands to pin down his aggression factor that much. I like to know more about how they've specifically handled situations at the table -- and someone playing 60% of their hands will probably have shown specifics by now.

Buckmulligan · #4 09-07-2005, 11:48 AM

We need to win this pot around 25% of the time after the turn raise for a call down to show profit. I don't think we do. I fold the turn.

bozlax · #5 09-07-2005, 11:56 AM

Mucking a big pocket pair is one of the hardest things in poker for me. That said, what do you think Villan is playing that you're ahead of? What do you think he's playing that you're behind but have outs against? If you have outs, do you have the right pot odds to call to your outs?

I don't see villan raising an OESD on the turn, so you're probably up against two-pair, a set or an ace (a passive villan isn't raising, here, with nine-rag). Against a set or any ace, you're drawing to 2 outs (as long as it's not a set of aces); against two-pair with 98, you've got 2 kings, 3 aces and 3 deuces, for 8 outs.

So, there are a lot more hands that would be played like this that you're behind than that you're ahead of. I think you should call the turn and check/fold the river UI. Is that what I would do? Doubtful. But, I think that's what you SHOULD do.

Fantam · #6 09-07-2005, 11:59 AM

You should raise a premium hand like KK preflop for value.

However the A on the flop was the last card that you wanted to see, because a lot of people like to play Ax hands.

You were correct to bet the flop, because it was not certain that either of your 2 opponents had an A and you did not want to allow anyone drawing to a flush,inside straight,2 pair or trips a free card to possibly beat you.

You were also correct to bet the turn. The turn card was a blank and did not appear likely to have improved either of your opponents hands.

However when UTG raised the turn, it became very likely that he either slowplayed Ax on the flop, or else the 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] had improved his hand to something like 2 pair. You were probably way behind with only 2 outs to win.

(You would have 8 outs against a 2 pair hand not containing an A. However there are many more Ax combinations that UTG could have, compared to the likely 2 pair combinations that he might have.)

You were getting pot odds of about 7.5:1 to call the turn raise, but would probably have had to call a further river bet to see a showdown. That reduced your effective odds to about just over 4:1.

In this situation, I would feel inclined to fold to the turn raise against most opponents. If I knew that my opponent was normally passive, that would make my decision to fold even easier.

DeathDonkey · #7 09-07-2005, 12:01 PM

Give up on the turn. You will get kings again.

-DeathDonkey