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  #1  
Old 08-29-2005, 07:45 PM
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Default how good is your limit hold\'em - book title

Hi,
First like to say this is a great site.
Though still something of a fledgling I'm becoming dangerously close to obsessed with the game. The usual tell tale signs are there - "I'm calling the solicitor, now" and, "I'm off to my Mums, again", are among the not unrepresentative comments of the current Mrs B.
Still life/poker goes on.
Which in a round about way ( I promise not to go on so much in future posts ) brings me to the crux.
I've seen a number of comments on here about the above book.
It is thought provoking and makes you consider situations rather than just trying to absorb masses of info that you are sometimes confronted with. However ..., I'm struggling with one or two issues that perhaps someone in my new community might be able to enlighten me/support me on.

Hand 1 Bizarre bunch
I know there is a thread on this but it starts past where I am struggling with it. So starting from the top.
Hero is BB (A 10 clubs.)
CO (Jonny - competent, solid bit timid)
UTG Bizarre (makes odd plays, has strange mix of passive/agressive)

Bizarre raises
All folded to Jonny who calls.
Book - Q. What do you do ?
I'd probably fold but to follow this through a bit further say I call.
Flop
10h,8h,6d
Somewhat dubiously Hero bets.
Bizarre raises, Jonny calls two bets cold.
This is where it would too hot too handle and I'd muck.
However Hero calls !
As stated perhaps someone can explain.
the example is a $20-$40 game so decent starting standards must surely apply. So my read would be

Bizarre raises - he has high pair, maybe AK, AQ at worst.
Jonny calls - with that he should have something similar.
Hero calling is dubious.
post flop
Bizarre raises Heros bet (first klaxon), Jonny calls 2 bets cold - I'm getting deafened.
At this stage the notes to the answers in the book state that hero has top pair, top kicker. Does he ? The raising and calling of the others suggest different, at least one of them may have a higher pocket pair.
Maybe I'm just more fledgling that I care to admit (to myself), but then any education would be welcome.
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  #2  
Old 08-29-2005, 07:55 PM
waffle waffle is offline
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Default Re: how good is your limit hold\'em - book title

Johnny's actions are consistant with a draw. Bizarre is well, bizarre, and there is no way you can be certain he has an overpair. Bet/folding this flop is criminal. Don't play shorthanded, I am certain you will get run over.
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  #3  
Old 08-29-2005, 08:53 PM
fnurt fnurt is offline
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Default Re: how good is your limit hold\'em - book title

Just a point of terminology - AT is still top pair, top kicker (TPTK), regardless of whether someone has an overpair, two pair, a straight flush, etc.
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  #4  
Old 08-30-2005, 02:09 AM
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Default Re: how good is your limit hold\'em - book title

Thanks for the responses.
Heros call I can understand (folding A 10 s could be a crime) but subsequent betting actions suggest he's beat on the flop.
Appeciate TPTK, but my point was that isn't that a little myopic. Bizarre should have a very strong hand UTG even if he lives up to his name.
Jonny is supposed to be solid. Calling a raise from UTG and then 2 bets cold on a possible draw seems too bold. I thought poker wisdom suggested you needed more than 2 opponents to call this. Or do his pot odds somehow justify this ?? The hand history says he actually held 10d 9d !
I do, when I play, avoid short handed games like the plague - I know I'm not good enough/experienced enough for that yet. I've no intention of being a traffic victim or cash cow. Warning heeded.
However this hypothetical situation was a 7 player game.
As said, ta for feedback.
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  #5  
Old 08-30-2005, 03:32 AM
oreogod oreogod is offline
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Default Re: how good is your limit hold\'em - book title

YOu still have a lot to learn. That is an easy flop bet for the reasons the book suggests and given the read on the player. Dubious? More like awesome.

The action on the flop suggests nothing of Hero being beat. That is way way way to weak tight. Also, easy call preflop.

This book is defintily one of the better ones out there and I actually think it should be required reading once u have gone through a few books and have some experience under your belt. If u find yourself disagreeing w/ more than 1-2 answers in each hand, trust me, its not the book. Its you.
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  #6  
Old 08-30-2005, 08:00 AM
waffle waffle is offline
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Default Re: how good is your limit hold\'em - book title

Remember these points.

1. UTG 7 handed is the same as early-middle position 10 handed.

2. Bizarre plays mediocre hands aggressively.
2a. He raises PF with a wide range of hands.
2b. He raises your flop bet with a wide range of hands. He would probably do this with hands as bad as two unpaired overcards.

3. Johnny is noted as "rather loose preflop".

4. Just because it's a 20/40 game doesn't mean that their raises are indicating monsters. In fact, compared to lower limits, I am pretty sure they are raising with worse hands at the 20/40.

5. Don't assume that your opponents play the same way that you do.
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  #7  
Old 08-30-2005, 05:10 PM
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Default Re: how good is your limit hold\'em - book title

I wasn't sure if the poker weakness existed with the book or with me. I should have known better and now I do. Ta to all particularly the short handed info - pearls to the uninitiated. Back to the books and many, many more hands.
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  #8  
Old 08-30-2005, 08:13 PM
sethypooh21 sethypooh21 is offline
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Default Re: how good is your limit hold\'em - book title

[ QUOTE ]
Bizarre should have a very strong hand UTG even if he lives up to his name.
Jonny is supposed to be solid. Calling a raise from UTG and then 2 bets cold on a possible draw seems too bold. I thought poker wisdom suggested you needed more than 2 opponents to call this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bizzare's raise (especially on the flop) means very little. If Jonny is competent, he knows this, and can maybe relax his calling standards a bit, especially if he doesn't think you will 3-bet. He has T9, so TP + ISD, which has significant winning chances. If I'm Jonny on the button in a 6-handed game, I might 3-bet the flop, then hero does have an interesting decision...
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