Blind defense against good player - KJs

StellarWind · #1 10-07-2005, 05:06 PM

Party 5/10 6-max (5-handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Button raises, SB folds, Hero calls.

Button is 23/16 and pretty similar to me postflop except considerably more aggressive on the turn and river. 3-betting is something I do some of the time here with this hand. I also smoothcall a lot of premium hands in this situation. Right now all hell was breaking loose on another table so I took the easy way out and called.

Flop (4 SB): 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Turn (3 BB): A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, ...

adamstewart · #2 10-07-2005, 05:19 PM

3-bet preflop. No excuses.

The hand plays entirely different after that.

Adam

#3 10-07-2005, 05:26 PM

3-bet preflop. A 23/16's button range is a lot worse than your hand.

Wynton · #4 10-07-2005, 05:48 PM

Let me put it this way. I totally suck at playing the bb, and I probably would have just called too. Not a good sign.

Megenoita · #5 10-07-2005, 05:54 PM

I like 3-betting PF ESPECIALLY with good Kings because then when that ace turns your bet actually folds the guy. I've c/r so many draws (OESD or FDs) where I pay the bastard too much with not enough equity b/c I overcalculated my fold equity. HU it doesn't seem worth it when they are well aware of the flush draw and bluffable board--all but no piece stay in the hand, I find. Of course it's much better that he's a TAG, but he could very well have an ace, too. Maybe this is short sighted thinking...let me know, guys.

partygirluk · #6 10-07-2005, 05:58 PM

3 bet this prelop as you have a significant equity edge. You also want to make it as dear as possible for him to steal your blinds with weak holdings.

Wynton · #7 10-07-2005, 06:07 PM

To be a little less flip, let me ask those who advocate 3-betting explain which hands they'd just call against this opponent, without 3-betting.

And if anyone's feeling extra-generous with their time, perhaps they could tell me why 3-betting only the best hands, but calling the weaker defensible hands, doesn't result in giving away too much info.

Megenoita · #8 10-07-2005, 06:13 PM

KJs is a premium hand that has a definite PF edge against villain's range that can also lose easily post flop and therefore desires to take the initiative in the hand (IMO).

For the same reason (initiative), once maybe every 2-3 hours I cap with a hand I was 3-bet against because I know their range can be so wide, and that initiative gains me tremendous fold equity IMO.

I like just calling with, say, A8. I can passively suck out all the bets he'll offer while not being afraid of an overcard.

I like 3-betting AT or better, sometimes A9, and many pps. They will often win UI. This doesn't give away too much info b/c I can always have 33 playing the way I do.

I like also occasionally 3-betting a hand like QTs.

I like calling with many marginal hands and c/r the flop, betting the turn on low cards. That wins a very high % against TAGish players.

I'm open to everyone's thoughts on this kind of strategy.

M

StellarWind · #9 10-07-2005, 07:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
KJs is a premium hand that has a definite PF edge against villain's range that can also lose easily post flop and therefore desires to take the initiative in the hand (IMO).

[/ QUOTE ]
I recently reevaluated several aspects of my preflop strategy and made some important changes. But before that I was a 23/16.9. That's very convenient because it makes it easy to specify a hand range for Villain: any pocket, any ace, K4s, K6o, Q8s, Q9o, J8s, J9o, T8s, T9o, 98s.

That comes out to a gigantic 52.6% hot-and-cold advantage preflop (PokerStove). Of course the advantage of the button should allow a good player to win more than his fair share of hands. Plus I may get capped by a truly premium hand.

There is no preflop equity advantage to be exploited by reraising.

The preflop decision completely changes the value situation on the flop. If I have 3-bet then I almost have to autobet the flop. The immediate EV of this action is seriously negative because on average I still only have my 52.6% edge. When I'm ahead he will usually call or possibly even fold and I get nothing extra. When I'm behind I tend to get raised and put an extra bet into a bad situation. Overall the flop is going to be a -EV street for me.

However, if I just call preflop he has to autobet. Now I pay one bet or fold when I've flopped badly and hammer him with a checkraise when I'm doing well. This makes the flop a +EV street for me.

Of course either of us might wait until the turn to put our respective raises in, but assuming waiting is a good play that only increases the EV of the raising player.

Note that all of this is an application of the mathematical idea presented in Sklansky's excellent October 2+2 Internet Magazine article.

3-betting preflop is not directly +EV. It is actually a major EV investment in that highly prized commodity "The Initiative". The premise of "The Initiative" is that by truthfully telling a strong Villain that I have a quality hand instead of leaving him completely in the dark, Villain will proceed to make a bunch on bad folds and generally give me his money. If only this good player had no idea what I had he would play so much better.

As I said, I've been rethinking my preflop strategy and heads up 3-betting and capping situations are a big piece of it. I know what most of you think and I've decided I don't agree with you. So I'm going to do things my way for a while and see how it works.

The truth is that very few hands have a big advantage against most players' steal ranges. Furthermore almost all hands can secure a much bigger advantage by waiting until the flop to raise.

Shania doesn't like narrow 3-bet ranges so I also don't want to only 3-bet premium hands. Accordingly I've decided to start calling everything including the premium hands. About a third of the time I'll 3-bet a premium hand to disguise my strategy. I also 3-bet drawing hands like KJs and QTs about 1/3 of the time to maintain balance.

Other heads-up 3-betting and capping situations where I am doing related things include blind-versus-blind, EP versus BB, and openraise-versus-3bet. This last situation relates to Barron's latest 2+2 article. I think the Frank "standard 2+2" idea of only capping a 3-bet heads-up with AA, KK, QQ, and AK is a complete crock. I'd love to see what Barron's article would have looked like if Frank had said "see you on the flop" and called any two cards. That's what I now do. If you want to isolate me you do so at your own risk. No more warnings when I have a good hand. If you insist on abusing my A9s and QJs hands with incessant bluffing you do so at your own risk.

So far the new approach feels good. I've already been seriously overpaid for several premium hands. Only time will tell how well it really works.

Very important: none of this applies multiway except in special cases. Another of my resolutions is actually to be nastier about 3-betting marginal hands instead of just calling after someone raises limpers.

Now can we please talk about the turn? This is not a preflop hand. Postflop play wins the money folks. What range of hands am I folding here? Especially if my preflop call could be a premium hand?

SparkyDog · #10 10-07-2005, 07:49 PM

Excellent post.

And I think I agree with a lot of what you say. Much better thought out reasoning than the reflexive, "equity edge raise!!!1!" mantra.

EDIT to include turn play:

I don't think he'll fold very many pocket pairs, which is the only hands you want to fold that he plausibly will. I don't like a check-raise semi-bluff because I don't think he'll really fold all that many hands that you're behind. So I prefer a river donk if you improve in any way at all.