Expert vs. Strong player, where is the advantage?

[CrisBrown]

Hi All,

I couldn't think of a better forum in which to post this, so I'll try it here.

In Hold'Em (limit or deep-money PL/NL) in which betting round does the expert player gain the greatest edge over a strong-but-not-expert player?

The expert's edge lies in making better decisions, so it seems reasonable that that edge will be most significant when the decisions are the most difficult. When the decisions are obvious, the expert has no edge over the strong-but-not expert player, because even the strong-but-not expert player will reach the correct decision most of the time. The more complex and difficult the decisions, the greater the edge to the expert over the strong-but-not-expert.

So, in what betting round are the decisions most complex and difficult?

(1) Pre-Flop
(2) Flop
(3) Turn
(4) River

I'll save my opinion (and I'm not sure I've formed one) until I've seen what others have to say. Also, if you believe the answer changes depending on the structure of the game (limit, pot-limit, no-limit), feel free to give a different answer for each structure. However, for PL and NL, assume deep money (average stacks of 200xBB or more).

Cris

[pudley4]

In limit, it's the turn. Followed by the flop. Preflop and river are too basic for any huge difference to occur (between these two skill sets).

[ChristophUoR]

I seem to remember Doyle Brunson say for NL that it's the flop. It makes sense, you gain relatively less information on the turn and river compared to the flop.

For limit, the bigger turn bet does change things, but I'd still say the flop was more important. Often crucial moves such as protecting your hand and raising for a free card or information are made on the flop... as much of the new information you have at the begining of the turn betting is what your opponant told you on the flop (which is often a direct result of correct flop play). So I'd go with the flop for limit as well. Most of the effect of the big bet is to change the odds you're faced with on the turn.

Just my $.02
Chris

[CrisBrown]

Hi All,

I may have posed a trick question, in some respects. Perhaps the expert's advantage lies in a more wholistic approach to the pre-flop, flop, and turn decisions, and indeed the game as a whole. I'll try to explain, and I'm thinking out loud here, so please don't take this as more than an invitation to a discussion where I may very likely be more wrong than right....

New players, and even many strong-but-not-expert players, tend to take each decision point as it happens. The pre-flop decisions are, as another poster has noted, fairly basic. Then the flop comes, and a new situation emerges. They make a decision based on that situation, and on to the turn ... where another new situation emerges. And so on.

I suspect that truly expert players are anticipating flop and turn situations while they're assessing pre-flop options. Those situations have as much to do with the other players in the pot, their reads and tendencies, position, etc. as they do with the cards in hand and the cards on the board. Obviously, the best-laid plan for a hand can be blown out of the water by an unexpected action from another player, or a miracle/nightmare card on board. But even those can be anticipated to some extent, in most cases, and accounted for in the plan for playing the hand.

Moreover, expert players are not simply looking at this hand in isolation, but in anticipation of future situations against different players ... setting up later plays. All of that is swirling around each decision point, and perhaps the ability to filter through all of that -- as it applies to a given betting round -- is what truly separates the expert from the strong-but-not-expert player.

Thoughts?

Cris

[Dominic]

I think, by far, the flop is the biggest decision making round you'll have. Once you decide to play, the turn and river become fairly straightforward the majority of the time.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
I may have posed a trick question, in some respects.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, another Cris Brown "I am smarter than you all" post.

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps the expert's advantage ... blah blah blah...a bunch of crap everyone already knows and/or no one cares about...blah blah blah...Look at how smart I am

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for sharing.

[Cosimo]

[ QUOTE ]
In Hold'Em (limit or deep-money PL/NL) in which betting round does the expert player gain the greatest edge over a strong-but-not-expert player?

[/ QUOTE ]

So, which is it? Is your question "where does the expert have advantage over the strong player?" or "in which round does the expert have the greatest edge over the strong player?" Because if it's the first question, asking the second one is disingenuous, and (by your 'answer') I have to agree with Jeff A in content if not in style.

[CrisBrown]

Hi Jeff,

It wasn't that. What I realized, after posing the question, is that I don't think the question really gets to the point of where the expert's advantage lies. It wasn't an "I'm smarter than you." It was a "Gee, that was a dumb question."

What I was trying to work my way around to was what separates the truly expert players (of which I am NOT one) from the strong-but-not-expert players. This came from a discussion in another forum about the difference between NL and limit play, and which offers the expert the best earn:variance ratio. That discussion drifted to short- vs. deep-stack NL play, and then I read Daniel Negreanu's article on CardPlayer about why he believes the Main Event at the WSOP should be PL rather than NL.

One school of thought says that the more decisions there are to be made, the greater the edge to the more skillful player, owing to the accretion of those edges at each decision point. But then I thought about it some more, and not all decisions give an equal edge to the more skillful player. Some are so obvious that even a relative newcomer is likely to get them right most of the time.

So I found myself wondering where the more skillful player's edge really materializes in the process of playing a pot, or a session. My first thought was to look at which betting round offered the most significant and most difficult decisions, as it seemed that this was where the more skillful player's edge would emerge. And that's what I posted in the original question.

Then I thought ... that might not be it at all. It might be that the expert's ability to anticipate future decisions and factor those into the immediate decision is what sets him apart. Thus my reply to my original question.

Frankly, I don't know what the answer is, or even if there is a single answer for all expert players. It may be that, for some, the edge emerges in one area, while for others it is something else altogether.

I agree with those who said the flop is probably the most critical decision point in NL hold'em; that may move to the turn in PL and limit games, though I can't speak for limit. I'm just not sure the question I originally asked has any practical relevance whatever. *shrugs*

Cris

[mmcd]

Preflop, the expert can play a few more hands.

The biggest advantage comes from the combination of the flop and turn play.

[Demana]

[ QUOTE ]

Moreover, expert players are not simply looking at this hand in isolation, but in anticipation of future situations against different players ... setting up later plays. All of that is swirling around each decision point, and perhaps the ability to filter through all of that -- as it applies to a given betting round -- is what truly separates the expert from the strong-but-not-expert player.

Thoughts?

Cris

[/ QUOTE ]

My newbie $.02 -

Whether the players are strong or expert, the play of the hand is the play of the hand. Neither holds an advantage over the other during the play of any one hand.

That said, I would expect that the expert looks at the game from an aggregate view and can set up other players for plays in other hands, whereas the strong player isn't looking much beyond their current holdings.

Perhaps a better way to put is this:
The expert is forward thinking, the strong player is backward thinking.

The strong player knows how to play any one hand based on previous experience.

The expert player plays any one hand with an eye on how they will play that same hand against the same opponents in the future.