J8s 20-40 bb - Page 4

CardSharpCook · #31 09-09-2005, 02:56 AM

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Sorry I didnt see he made it, I though he was just betting a jack. Too many beers watching the Pats tonight.

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well he also had an 8.... which means he had a pair of 8s on the flop.

Deorum · #32 09-09-2005, 10:07 AM

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I really think it comes down to a couple things. How often she will three bet her good hands on the turn, and if you have a shot at getting her to lay down something like 1010 QQ. I think its close, but if she will only three bet with a set I do like it.

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right but what about the other two players who called the flop and the turn?

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Yeah one of them could defintely have a better hand.

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But some % of the time they will not. Since he is getting
3-1 on his checkraise when it is called by everyone, it
alone is probably not very far from a break even bet either
way. But add to it the fact that it can cause the woman to
fold QQ, JJ, or TT, thus sometimes eliminating his need to
improve in this big pot, and it becomes an excellent play.
I realize this is pretty much what you were trying to
explain yourself, but I thought I would elaborate on it
some.

stoxtrader · #33 09-09-2005, 10:23 AM

a few guys I think play good are advocating a flop lead in this hand and I disagree - please show me the error of my ways.

I would check this flop because if you are drawing, you want to draw cheaply, if you are ahead, you want to cutdown the field. Leading does neither I think. you also INCREASE your implied odds by checking the flop. If this seems cryptic, I can elaborate, but i hope some of you will elaborate on your leading the flop position.

Jeffage · #34 09-09-2005, 11:08 AM

It's a good checkraise, just more for value than as a semi bluff since it's doubtful any of them will fold. There is a slight chance you're ahead, but loose passive lady figures to have an overpair when she leads twice and one of the callers could have a 9. In any case, you have plenty of outs when behind so I don't really have a problem with the checkraise at all.

Jeff

Deorum · #35 09-09-2005, 11:14 AM

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a few guys I think play good are advocating a flop lead in this hand and I disagree - please show me the error of my ways.

I would check this flop because if you are drawing, you want to draw cheaply, if you are ahead, you want to cutdown the field. Leading does neither I think. you also INCREASE your implied odds by checking the flop. If this seems cryptic, I can elaborate, but i hope some of you will elaborate on your leading the flop position.

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The idea is that since the pot is already somewhat large,
you should try to do whatever is needed to try to win it.
By betting the flop, you give hands that should call a
chance to fold, especially when someone behind you raises
to knock out the other players. The problem with that here
is that UTG lady was described as loose passive, which
means she is probably going to call with overcards instead
of raise with them. If she does raise, you are probably in
fairly bad shape, but it is not too disasterous as you may
well get head up in a big pot for just one more bet. Also,
if the action comes back 3-bet to you, you can fold assured
that you are probably drawing very thin.

Hamlet · #36 09-09-2005, 11:23 AM

I think the flop is worth a little more than a check-call here. Does anyone lead or check-raise the flop. The pot is pretty sizable. It might be worth getting head's up with the likely over-pair to clean up your outs.

Even if you can't thin the field that much, you can't be in real bad shape with a pair, a backdoor straight and a backdoor flush.

stoxtrader · #37 09-09-2005, 12:03 PM

I think getting it heads-up on the flop by betting and getting raised is MUCH worse than if you check, and raise a late position bettor.

mike l. · #38 09-09-2005, 01:06 PM

"elaborate on your leading the flop position."

here are some reasons for leading.

--avoid having it checked around as you may have the winner
on that flop and lady may not bet AK, AQ, etc.
--clean up outs by giving some hands you want to fold (Kh5h for instance and yes that is possible for one of the cold callers to have) a chance to fold for either one bet or two (should old lady or someone else raise).
--get information as to the strength of other player's hands. for instance if you bet and old lady autoraises you can safely put her on a big overpair because she's predictable and readable.

there may be other reasons but those are my top 3. i think checking here instead of betting is a significant mistake.

mike l. · #39 09-09-2005, 01:10 PM

"check, and raise a late position bettor."

this is an option of course but these cold callers tend to play too randomly. they will step on the gas one hand when they shouldnt and slam on the brakes the next for no apparent reason. you cant rely on someone to always bet and letting it get checked through on such a safe flop for your hand is a disaster especially in a raised pot.

mike l. · #40 09-14-2005, 02:40 PM

gabe played the hand. the real results are he c/red the turn and utg lady bullet folded. the other two fish called. the river was a brick and gabe checked and the other two players checked and immediately folded before gabe could showdown his hand. so he won without showing.

i still think the flop check-call is exceptionally wrong. betting is clearly the play.