When bottom two pair is counterfeited

[Flushed]

No reads on anyone. Please evaluate line on all streets.
I was folding to a raise on turn or river.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, SB completes, hero checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">hero bets</font>, UTG calls, SB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">hero bets</font>, UTG calls, SB calls.

River: (6 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">hero bets</font>...

Final Pot: 8 BB

My logic here is: A high or a 2 is calling on the river, I'm chopping with almost any 3, a better hand would've raised the turn. And yes I am mucking very quickly to a raise on turn or river.

Also, who tries to CR the flop here?

Thanks,

Flushed

[Dopey]

I take the same line.

I wouldn't try the check-raise on the flop, with only UTG still to act you are giving up too much if he checks.
Also while getting more money in you are not protecting your hand as much (with a bet your opposition is getting 4-1 on a call but with a check raise if UTG bets they get 7-1 if SB called the first bet and 6-1 if its heads-up)

Beyond that you have too keep betting until they give you a reason to stop (Either SB betting out or you getting raised)

Dopey [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[JoshuaD]

Sans reads, I check/fold the river. I can't imagine you're getting value from a bet, and no one's gonna bet a 2 or a 3 behind you.

I think a check/raise is gonna whiff too often on this flop to make it worthwhile.

[ZenMusician]

[ QUOTE ]
I take the same line.

I wouldn't try the check-raise on the flop, with only UTG still to act you are giving up too much if he checks.
Also while getting more money in you are not protecting your hand as much (with a bet your opposition is getting 4-1 on a call but with a check raise if UTG bets they get 7-1 if SB called the first bet and 6-1 if its heads-up)

Beyond that you have too keep betting until they give you a reason to stop (Either SB betting out or you getting raised)

Dopey [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. the thing about hands that contain a deuce or trey is that they get counterfeit very easily and MUST be protected early. Your opponents with
top pair or AQ, etc have many "invisible" outs to beat you. I like this line up front.

-ZEN

[Flushed]

[ QUOTE ]
Sans reads, I check/fold the river. I can't imagine you're getting value from a bet, and no one's gonna bet a 2 or a 3 behind you.

I think a check/raise is gonna whiff too often on this flop to make it worthwhile.

[/ QUOTE ]

But wouldn't a 2 or an A high call often enough to make a bet worth it?

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]

But wouldn't a 2 or an A high call often enough to make a bet worth it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think so, but everyone else seems to disagree with me.

[kem]

[ QUOTE ]
My logic here is: A high or a 2 is calling on the river, I'm chopping with almost any 3, a better hand would've raised the turn. And yes I am mucking very quickly to a raise on turn or river.

Also, who tries to CR the flop here?


[/ QUOTE ]

Call me weak-tight, but I check-fold the river. Any pocket pair beats you, any two diamonds beat you, any Q or 8. If it were just one opponent, I'd probably bet it, but you really think that you have both opponents beat here?

6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] is a better hand that could have just called the turn.

[Flushed]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My logic here is: A high or a 2 is calling on the river, I'm chopping with almost any 3, a better hand would've raised the turn. And yes I am mucking very quickly to a raise on turn or river.

Also, who tries to CR the flop here?


[/ QUOTE ]

Call me weak-tight, but I check-fold the river. Any pocket pair beats you, any two diamonds beat you, any Q or 8. If it were just one opponent, I'd probably bet it, but you really think that you have both opponents beat here?

6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] is a better hand that could have just called the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't that "over-narrowing" their hands? Yes, they could have a lone queen, A3, or a very strangely played PP. But I have trouble putting them on hands that beat me, given the action on previous streets.

Also, I am very comfortable folding to a raise here; I'm less comfortable folding to a single river bet from someone acting last if checked through.

If I am calling that single bet (which may be a bluff or a 2), I should be betting out. I will rarely get raised here by a Q or something like 77; also, a river bluff-raise is unlikely. Hence, it will cost me a single bet in either case (bet vs. call), but my bet will often get called by smaller hands, while a smaller hand will bet out less frequently.

A check/fold (without proper stats) seems meh.

Someone correct me.

[kem]

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't that "over-narrowing" their hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

You said a better hand would have raised the turn. I offered a counter-example. There are other hands that could fall into this range. What about a passively played A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]?

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, they could have a lone queen, A3, or a very strangely played PP. But I have trouble putting them on hands that beat me, given the action on previous streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

What hands do you put them on? Given all their check/calling, they surely aren't playing too aggressively.. but they do each have 2 cards. I could see it being a PP like 7s, 6s, or 5s.. or KQo.. Do you think that they both called the turn with no flush draw or piece of the flop otherwise?

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I am very comfortable folding to a raise here; I'm less comfortable folding to a single river bet from someone acting last if checked through.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you must be expecting worse hands to call you. I doubt A-high or a 2 is going to call you that often to make it profitable.. but that's just my opinion.

[ QUOTE ]
If I am calling that single bet (which may be a bluff or a 2), I should be betting out. I will rarely get raised here by a Q or something like 77; also, a river bluff-raise is unlikely. Hence, it will cost me a single bet in either case (bet vs. call), but my bet will often get called by smaller hands, while a smaller hand will bet out less frequently.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just don't see worse hands calling you. You barely have anything here, and an overcard completing the flush draw landed on the river against 2 opponents. I can't see this as a value bet, and a better hand is not likely folding.

[Fat Nicky]

I don't like a value bet at the river as there are too many hands that beat you.

How about this line for the river:
-You check, if UTG bets, and SB folds, call the river.

or

-You check, if UTG bets and SB calls, fold.