PS $0.25/$0.50 Trouble at passive table

Benoit · #1 11-21-2005, 01:48 AM

The table was really passive pre-flop with the exception of a couple who were directly to my right (including UTG+1). I had been getting a rush of cards and people kept folding, so when someone raised me, it could very well have been another with TP bad kicker, and with 6 others to the flop I wanted the draws to pay. Maybe I was too aggressive post-flop and on the turn?

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, 2 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (7.40 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP3 folds, CO calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 caps, Hero calls, CO calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (12.20 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, CO folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (18.20 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 21.20 BB

#2 11-21-2005, 01:53 AM

Raise preflop, whole hand plays differently from there. I also think if you're going to raise that turn, you have to raise the river too unless you think UTG who has been donk-calling the whole way just made a rediculous set or straight or something. Also I think a flop 3-bet might be excessive, correct me if I'm wrong anyone.

Steve

MrWookie47 · #3 11-21-2005, 01:53 AM

I'd raise that river. I think the times you find a player with a worse two pair are greater than the times you find a terrible, terrible player with a set or a straight.

Edit: Raise preflop.

Benoit · #4 11-21-2005, 02:06 AM

Hmm so since someone with a worse two pair or top pair could be doing this, I should raise the river to maximize my gain when I do win? I kind of figured UTG+1 on a worse two pair when he only called my raise on the turn, but then him betting into me threw me off and I only called fearing something stronger like a set.

BTW I didn't really figure KQo to be strong enough for a raise. Since these people had been cold calling a lot, shouldn't I only raise if I know I likely have the odds going in before the flop?

MrWookie47 · #5 11-21-2005, 02:08 AM

Raise only if you have odds before the flop? Huh? Does not compute. Odds for what?

Secondly, if we assume we have UTG+1 beat, how often do we have to be ahead of UTG for this raise to be +EV? You should be able to work this out.

#6 11-21-2005, 02:11 AM

Usually they're cold calling with terrible hands, i.e. any suited cards, any Ax, and sometimes rediculous crap like J3. At a loose table, SSHE recommends raising KQo in middle position on the TIGHT table chart, and that hand would suggest you were at anything but a tight table.

I also still feel that calling is the correct play on the river, but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.

Steve

Benoit · #7 11-21-2005, 02:32 AM

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Raise only if you have odds before the flop? Huh? Does not compute. Odds for what?

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, I meant raise if I think I'm the favorite pre-flop, so even a limper with A5o is a slight favorite to me. Odds are this is not the case, so I should still raise and make the other limpers pay?

[ QUOTE ]
Secondly, if we assume we have UTG+1 beat...

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But that's the thing, I would have bet the river until he bet into me, then the whole hand replaying through my head had a new meaning and I thought maybe he was slowplaying something stronger. My experience at this level is a lot of players like to slow play and trap, right?

MrWookie47 · #8 11-21-2005, 02:34 AM

A5o is a slight favorite over KQo in a HU pot, but KQo fares much better in a multiway pot. Furthermore, you're not concerned with being ahead of their exact hand. You're concerned with being ahead of their ranges. KQo dominates a very large portion of their hands if they're willing to play A5o. Raise it up. Profit. Smile.

Edit: Yes, a lot of players like to slowplay and trap. However, you're unlikely to be up against KK or QQ, since those are raised preflop an overwhelming majority of the time. Second, most players slowplay to the turn, not the river. Third, most players who slowplay spring their trap with a c/r, not a donkbet. It's a non-zero possibility, but we're ahead often enough to raise this.

Benoit · #9 11-21-2005, 02:49 AM

Ah thanks for the explanation... Yeah I've been trying to work on which hands I should raise. I made the mistake of believing a lot of what Ken Warren (Winner's Guide to Texas Hold'em) wrote, so for a long time I was barely raising with anything. Now it's all about pushing those odds.

Benoit · #10 11-21-2005, 02:50 AM

Sorry what is this SSHE people keep talking about? Is this a book?