Free showdown or value bet? Party 10/20

[hobbsmann]

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Do you see what I mean?

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D-Bag

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[adspar]

I absolutely see what you mean, and the inconsistency of my actions was the main reason for my post.

At the time of my turn raise, I did consider it a potential free showdown raise, but when he checked the river it felt like a value bet was in order since this wasn't a very threatening situation.

I ended up splitting the difference and checking, which I do too much.

Thanks for your thoughts, I'm glad I didn't overlook this hand.

[shant]

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this is an easy easy bet/fold

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[adspar]

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Since he called the turn raise I doubt he's folding on the river.


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Which is probably why I wimped out and checked, figuring weak Ks and QQ JJ could be check-calling.

But I think I'm good when he calls more than 55%, so this should be a bet. Most 7s and many lower pocket pairs are calling here.

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What I don't really get is why you would be raising the turn if you don't intend to bet the river for value.

The standard reasons why one might raise the turn and take a free showdown are:

1. It is possible my opponent is on a draw, and I can get one more bet from him on the turn that he might not put in on the river if he misses his draw.

2. I have a combination of a medium strength made hand and a drawing hand and would like to have the option of determining river action based on whether or not I improve.

3. I have a chance to get a better hand or a hand with enough outs to profitably continue to fold on the turn.

4. Tactical considerations in a multiway pot encourage me to raise the turn rather than the river (often for protection reasons).


I don't really think that any of these are at work here, so I don't think a strict "free showdown" line is good here. If you're raising the turn it would seem to be for value primarily, and therefore I can't think of why you wouldn't bet the river here. So I bet/fold the river.

I honestly think you might be better served by simply calling down in this sort of spot anyway. You might find that a player with a weak K will go in to call down mode after you raise anyway, and so raising the turn won't necessarily simplify the play of the hand. Further, you may well encourage a taggish type to fold a hand like 88 or A7, which doesn't have many outs against you, to fold when you'd actually prefer for them to continue and put in incorrect thin value bets on the river against you. Raising seems likely to put you in a position of facing a very high percentage of hands beating you while shutting out many that you could extract further value from.

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This is an amazingly informative post.

It's well thought out posts like these, explaining in detail why one particular line is prefered over another, that are most educational.

Well Done. I expect to see this in the digest.

[BigEndian]

I missed this the first time through. Fantastic post and many thanks again to Jake for the digests.

- Jim

[brettbrettr]

Value bet.

[bakku]

as others have said..if you're going to raise the turn it should be for value and you should follow through on the river. i do prefer a flop 3-bet though.

[brettbrettr]

RE: preferring a flop 3-bet, I think I prefer it too. That's the line I'd take against solid or reasonably solid non-tricky players.

Against a tricky, aggro player, I'm getting c/r'd on that flop a ton of the time so I raise the turn to punish them. And of course I follow through on the river.