Strategy: C/R the river

[BobboFitos]

I have a general question concerning a strategy I never employ, but a friend does, and it seems to work out great for him:
Check-raising the river with a big hand.

I always fear my opponent will check behind and I will lose the value that I would've gained had he called; or if I do induce a bluff, the raise part of my C/R wont matter because he wasn't going to call, anyways. (Almost like a check-calling a hand when you believe your opponent will bluff at the pot; but in this scenario there is little to no value in raising)

The unfortunate thing is (if more of my opponents were aware, luckily not all are) they would know a check on my part typically means a mediocre hands, and they really should blow me off my hand on the river more often. (Luckily for me, they dont!) So, my questions are...

1. When is it correct to C/R the river?

2. This sort of works in tandem with Q #1, but - Should you ever C/R a mediocre to good hand?

3. What exactly "is" the proper amount to C/R in this spot? (Speak in terms of "x," if X is the pot)

Thanks!

[Ghazban]

1. The frequency with which you checkraise the river depends upon your opponents. If they catch on to the fact that a check on your part indicates a less-than-stellar hand, you need to C/R a few times to show them that a check isn't pure weakness on your part. Other than that, clearly you need to feel like the person you're checking to will bet his hand so its usually most effective if used against an aggressive opponent.

2. Kind of a copout answer, but you can checkraise any hand that has a chance of winning. A C/R bluff on the river can be an effective tool as well as checkraising a good-but-not-great hand.

3. The amount is a much tougher question. Betting and raising the river is always trickier than the other streets because, with no more cards to come, there's definitely a best and 2nd best hand out there. On the flop and turn, bet size is often based on giving second best hands incorrect odds to catch up but this no longer applies on the river. To again give a copout answer, you should C/R an amount that causes people to sometimes fold the best hand and sometimes call with a 2nd best hand with a percentage that, in the long run, is +EV (I'll let somebody else come up with a correct pot size percentage-- personally, I do all my river plays totally by feel and reads of my opponents).

[nightlyraver]

I believe that check-raising the river is a very powerfull play if done at the correct time. First, as was already said, it only really works against an aggressive player - especially a loose-aggressive player. The correct move on the river is to only bet when you feel that there is a greater than 55% chance that you will win IF CALLED. That said, a tight player tends not to even bet the river unless they have a reasonably strong hand and a rock won't even bet the river unless they have the nuts or close thereto. Both these types of players will not try to bluff at the end unless the situation is optimal (ie. they place you on a specific hand and know that you will probably fold to a reasonably sized bet). However, the loose-aggressive player will bet at the end in many cases that he/she detects weakness. The most that this player will bluff will be when it looks like you missed a draw and were just trying to pick up the pot earlier as a semi-bluff or simply calling. Therefore, you will want to check it to this type of player quite often and raise perhaps 50% of the time when he bets and you feel that you have a greater than 55% chance of winning if he calls your raise, and still a substancial percent chance of winning if he re-raises. You get more bets out of him this way. Also, other players will give you free showdowns more often since they will see you checking the best hand on the end. However, if you do this too often or against the wrong player you will get no extra bets, but you still get the value of the table seeing your check and then watch you show the nuts. Judgement is key as in many situations but if you can put your oponent on a good second best hand and it's one that he will usually bet, this is the optimal time.

Good example:

You hold A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and he holds A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Flop comes A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
He will love his hand and may either put you on an A w/ a worse kicker or drawing to the flush. A LAG may never even consider the boat, actually. At the end, a check-raise would be a fantastic play if you can put him on an ace. The check on the end indicates you missed your draw, assuming that the flush card never comes, and he will want to bet what he believes is the best hand. Now you can raise and he will DEFINATELY call. In fact, he may re-raise and you still win and get even more bets out of him.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that check-raising the river is a very powerfull play if done at the correct time. First, as was already said, it only really works against an aggressive player - especially a loose-aggressive player. The correct move on the river is to only bet when you feel that there is a greater than 55% chance that you will win IF CALLED. That said, a tight player tends not to even bet the river unless they have a reasonably strong hand and a rock won't even bet the river unless they have the nuts or close thereto. Both these types of players will not try to bluff at the end unless the situation is optimal (ie. they place you on a specific hand and know that you will probably fold to a reasonably sized bet). However, the loose-aggressive player will bet at the end in many cases that he/she detects weakness. The most that this player will bluff will be when it looks like you missed a draw and were just trying to pick up the pot earlier as a semi-bluff or simply calling. Therefore, you will want to check it to this type of player quite often and raise perhaps 50% of the time when he bets and you feel that you have a greater than 55% chance of winning if he calls your raise, and still a substancial percent chance of winning if he re-raises. You get more bets out of him this way. Also, other players will give you free showdowns more often since they will see you checking the best hand on the end. However, if you do this too often or against the wrong player you will get no extra bets, but you still get the value of the table seeing your check and then watch you show the nuts. Judgement is key as in many situations but if you can put your oponent on a good second best hand and it's one that he will usually bet, this is the optimal time.

Good example:

You hold A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and he holds A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Flop comes A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
He will love his hand and may either put you on an A w/ a worse kicker or drawing to the flush. A LAG may never even consider the boat, actually. At the end, a check-raise would be a fantastic play if you can put him on an ace. The check on the end indicates you missed your draw, assuming that the flush card never comes, and he will want to bet what he believes is the best hand. Now you can raise and he will DEFINATELY call. In fact, he may re-raise and you still win and get even more bets out of him.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do realize if you're last to act, and you put your opponent on a busted draw, you shouldn't bet, right?... Do you see why this is true?

If that's the case, any player will not bet the river, and that's a perfect example where if you just led out at the river, (all this assuming not all th emoney went in on the Flop or turn) you will be paid off in full.

[cornell2005]

[ QUOTE ]
A C/R bluff on the river can be an effective tool as well as checkraising a good-but-not-great hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

i really dislike a c/r bluff on the river. you would generally be much better off c/r bluffing the flop or the turn, where he is faced with that fact that if he calls, it is likely that the rest of his stack is going in by the end of the hand. also, it is very very difficult imo to think of a situation where check raising the river with just a good hand is the best play.

in general i would try to stay away from check raising the river, except in this one rare situation: you know that if you bet, he will just call, and there will be money left on the table. you know that if you check, he will bet, and will likely call your raise. if you check raise, you will be able to get all in, whereas if you bet you can only get 1/3 or 1/2 of the way in.

[Ghazban]

I rarely C/R bluff on the river but, in the right situation, its a powerful play. I don't think I've EVER done it at low stakes online but, in a live game where I've been at the table with the same people for a few hours and they've seen me do it with the goods a few times, I'll throw it in (never showing the cards if they fold).

Good posts in this thread BK; I agree with what you're saying for the most part but, as I've been playing more live games lately, I'm more aware of the need to switch gears more often than you need to online (due to the high player turnover online where setting up future plays is generally worthless).

[nightlyraver]

Note my emphasis on 'IF CALLED' - if all he has is a busted draw, he definately will not call and you gain nothing. The money in the pot is already yours...

Not sure what you really mean by your second line of reasoning: "If that's the case, any player will not bet the river, and that's a perfect example where if you just led out at the river, (all this assuming not all th emoney went in on the Flop or turn) you will be paid off in full. "

... don't really get that

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
Note my emphasis on 'IF CALLED' - if all he has is a busted draw, he definately will not call and you gain nothing. The money in the pot is already yours...

Not sure what you really mean by your second line of reasoning: "If that's the case, any player will not bet the river, and that's a perfect example where if you just led out at the river, (all this assuming not all th emoney went in on the Flop or turn) you will be paid off in full. "

... don't really get that

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops should've double quoted, my 2nd statement was in regard to your example concerning trip aces. (The A A J flop I believe) Where if your opponent with trips puts you on a busted draw and you check to him, he is less likely to bet, since there is no apparent gain.
On the other hand, if you DO lead out, he will RAISE, i.e. you will be paid in full. Sorry for my choppy wording.