Preflop confusion

[DcifrThs]

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(i like to compare similar hands in the same spot and see how close the decision is). given your pokerstove analysis TT is indeed a 3 bet and 88 indeed a call.

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I also like to compare similar hands or similar flops and see where one play turns into another. Could you explain why TempusFugit's analysis means 88 is a call? It seems to me that the higher the pair, the more good flops, the more justification there is for giving the BB a chance to get in the action and to play a pot with him in as well.

Calling with the medium pairs before the flop is less attractive. The lower the pair the more important initiative becomes so you can take down boards on the flop or turn where UTG+3 misses but the flop would be too scary to put action in as a caller, with a smaller pot to boot.

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tempus's analysis didn't lead me to conclude 88 is a call for me. the fact i call with it here is a result of experience and previous analysis.

you dont want to be put in tough situations postflop if you can be ahead. w/ 88, preserving relative position is more important than getting UTG to fold when he's ahead b/c theres so many overcards that can come to 88 that when you lead you really can't call a raise even if he's raising w/ 99...you're still behind and you dont know he has 99 (for example)

further, your statement about the lower the pair the more important initiative is clearly intuitively flawed. at some point its too likely you are either way way way behind or slightly ahead like w/ 22. so you say that you'd rather call w/ AA and 3 bet w/ 22...that cannot possibly be maximizing EV. in fact, if i were to model how to give up the most EV with pocket pairs in the blinds it might look something like that, raise lower pairs call bigger pairs.

and getting the bb out isn't as important w/ 88 because UTG has position on you and him, you can c'r favorable flops and eliminate the bb there or force him to pay.

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The other issue that TempusFugit brings up, that the implied odds are against us, also suggests that if we play the medium pairs we need to be 3-betting them. On many of the boards where we have the best hand it will be unclear to us and that plus our poor position means our opponent will be value betting more effectively than we are and we may end up laying down the best hand. It is better to get the value in when we have our best shot at it.

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that is a myopic view of poker. this is a 4 street game. bloating the pot on the first street with a hand that can stand virtually no action on a vast majority of flops will force you into costly errors later.

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Sure it's possible for UTG+3 to take some pots away from us when we 3-bet and BB calls but I would guess that we lose even more boards when we call and the BB comes in a higher % of the time and we are often looking to dodge 3+ overcards instead of 2.

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but the fact remains you are going to be putting out that continuation bet on ALL flops if you intend to make UTG fold a better hand. so you 3 bet 88 flop comes Ah7hQc. you bet and get raised. even if you have the 8h, thats too scary a flop for you and he can easily have something like KJhh etc. where you are ahead but only barely now and will likely lose by the river so you have to fold. similarly, AQ on a KT3hh board will raise and force you to fold. same with KQ on JT2. even AK will raise QT2 and you're still in trouble even IF you get the bb out. dodging overcards isn't the predominant reason to raise.

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I also don't see how calling in the SB gives you "relative positional power". Yes, you act after the pf raiser who likely auto bets the flop but before the BB, making it difficult to trap him into a mistake even when you make a big hand.

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i bet out on flops witha big hand like set of 8s and good draws with hands i call in the sb. you can there make good money if UTG raises after bb calls and then 3 bet to force large mistakes.

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The BB has to call two cold at some point or you have to play very passively.

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please explain this.

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This alone makes calling before the flop with any pair less appealing.

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why?

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We are not going to get that much value out of the BB no matter how bad he plays with a mediocre hand that will rarely improve on uncertain boards when he is last to act after the likely flop bettor.

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again, either im missing something or this doesn't make intuitive sense. if bb plays poorly with hands that will rarely improve on boards that are favorable to us that is EXACTLY how we make lots of money.

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I understand that the equity analysis may suggest calling with pairs lower than 99 but the other reasons given push our play to a raise if we are going to get involved. I know J_V has said many times that a raise or fold situation is rarely the case but I think hands like 88 and 77 in this spot would be an example.

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3betting a UTG raise with 88 and 77 is a losing play in a vast majority of cases assuming UTG is a TAG.

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regards,

raisins

P.S. I also see this situation as different from calling in the SB when there is a CO/Button raise. You are facing a much wider hand range in the steal and your opponent is placing you on a wide hand range as well. The benefit of having a third player in to get a more honest reaction from the LP player is not as important as in J_V's hand.

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im way more likely to 3 bet a CO/BU raise with 88/77 than a UTG raise with the same hands holding the raising player and bb constant.

Barron

[raisins]

Thank you for the detailed response, there's a lot to think about.

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further, your statement about the lower the pair the more important initiative is clearly intuitively flawed. at some point its too likely you are either way way way behind or slightly ahead like w/ 22. so you say that you'd rather call w/ AA and 3 bet w/ 22...that cannot possibly be maximizing EV. in fact, if i were to model how to give up the most EV with pocket pairs in the blinds it might look something like that, raise lower pairs call bigger pairs.

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I agree that it would be ridiculous to 3-bet all the small pairs and to call the big pairs in this spot. At some point, the pairs are no longer going to be profitable to play no matter if you call or raise. I don't know where that line is, but I would fold 66 and lower and maybe 77 too. My point was more that of the pairs you are going to play the lower end of that range plays better with a raise. If a loose bad BB makes you consider calling in order to get him involved then I think the larger pairs would be better choices than the medium pairs. I'm not sure that I would call with any of them though, because the higher pairs lose a lot of equity from not taking the clear 3-bet and the loose BB will apparently call 2 sb with a large ratio of the hands that he would call 1 with.

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The BB has to call two cold at some point or you have to play very passively.

[/ QUOTE ] please explain this.

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I am completely wrong here, I wrote this without much thought. Obviously there are several lines we can take with strong hands where we bet out on the flop or turn and confront BB with only 1 bet. I was mostly thinking of dealing with UTG+3 as the aggressor since he is marked with a hand and has PF initiative if we don't 3-bet, and any raise off of his action is 2 bets to the BB.

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you dont want to be put in tough situations postflop if you can be ahead. w/ 88, preserving relative position is more important than getting UTG to fold when he's ahead b/c theres so many overcards that can come to 88 that when you lead you really can't call a raise even if he's raising w/ 99...you're still behind and you dont know he has 99 (for example)

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This is the crux of the issue. Isn't 99 much less likely to raise you when overcards come and you've 3-bet before the flop? A large part of the PF 3-bet is to get an honest reponse out of Villain. If 99 raises here and doesn't give you some credit on overcard flops plus you give up some of the scary boards where you're ahead to semi-bluffs (like the examples you gave) then sure there isn't much value to 3-betting. My opinion is that the 3-bet will drive out some of the better pairs on high card flop (or prevent you from folding the best hand) and get opponents to fold when they are drawing live on A and K flops and maybe some of the weaker Aces on rag boards and take back some of the equity you give up to the semi-bluffs. I don't know how to do the math to show this. I would be surprised if the extra sb does not bring in a positive return from taking down some of those high card boards while a call will have you conceding them regardless of what BB does. If I don't raise, flops I will give action to like one overcard and a two flush become trickier against two opponents and are tough for me to figure out where I'm at.

I know I haven't established a firm answer for my position but I still have some trouble seeing the benefits to calling with the botom of the range of pairs you play here is. I think you get blown off the best hand more often than a 3-bet and you give your opponent too many opportunities to take free cards or value bet you with marginal hands, like catching 2nd pair on the river. But perhaps the extra sb PF and the autobet on the flop, and a possible follow on the turn is too much exposure to make up for the extra boards it wins. I don't know, I'll keep thinking about it.

By the way, when I said this:

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We are not going to get that much value out of the BB no matter how bad he plays with a mediocre hand that will rarely improve on uncertain boards when he is last to act after the likely flop bettor.

[/ QUOTE ] again, either im missing something or this doesn't make intuitive sense. if bb plays poorly with hands that will rarely improve on boards that are favorable to us that is EXACTLY how we make lots of money.

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I meant we're the one with the mediocre hand on the uncertain board not the BB.

regards,

raisins

[mmcd]

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AQ on a KT3hh board will raise and force you to fold. same with KQ on JT2.

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I agree with all your other examples, but you wouldn't really fold 88 to a flop raise on a JT2 board in this situation, would you? Given that 3 bets went in preflop, I'm pretty inclined to get 88 to showdown here unless an A K or Q falls.