what does "outplay" mean?

[jdl22]

People in these forums use the word outplay reasonably often. I've thought about what exactly this means. Here are some examples, they are similar to things I've read, though none are exact quotes:
- I wouldn't normally limp with xy there but I feel like I can outplay these weak opponents after the flop

- I was really impressed with the amateur's skill in that WPT/WSOP tournament. He outplayed the famous pros.

- One problem these top level pros have in the large field tournaments is that they bluff too often against calling stations. Like Brunson pointed out in S/S, you can't outplay these bad players, you have to show the best hand to win.

- Good NL players should limp with a lot of hands. They can win back any money lost in not raising preflop by outplaying their opponents postflop.

In Sports it's clear what outplay means. The Pistons clearly outplayed the Lakers in the NBA finals - they demonstrated that they were the better team by playing at a much higher level. It is similar in other competitive games. If I play chess against Kasparov he will outplay me since I only know the rules and no strategy at all.

In poker it varies by opponent and cards. If you get your opponent to fold a better hand than yours, you have just outplayed them. If you get your opponent to pay off your flopped trips when he has only paired the other card then you have outplayed him.

I think outplaying comes down to these things:
- you must get your opponent to commit a mistake according to the FTOP
- you must win the hand or any hands you lose must result in winning larger pots later in the game

btw I thought this up when I was playing some $5 SNGs which featured some fantastically bad play. You often see 4 or 5 limpers, a LP raiser making it 12 bb to go and 3 players all in on the flop all on the first hand. It occurred to me that I could outplay these players by simply sitting back (I think that literally folding every single hand would be roughly a break even strategy in these tournaments) waiting for an absolute monster and then betting huge. While that is the case, often in larger buy in SNGs you outplay opponents by stealing like a bandit on the bubble, which mostly doesn't work at the lower buy in tournaments.

Any thoughts?

[MikeGuz]

A term used to describe a "move" that worked.

But making a good lay down and I mean GOOD can also be described as "out playing"

[Dov]

You are right in your assessment of how opponents are outplayed.

A very common problem among poker players is that they put too much emphasis on their cards.

You win 100% of the pots they don't call you down on. The more skillful you are, the more you will win.

BTW - Everyone has math, logic, and odds skills after a certain point. The better you are at reading situations and knowing when nobody has anything they can call you with, the more you will be able to 'outplay' your opponents.

[EjnarPik]

Good post.

I often use the term "outplay". To me it means something like: Getting better EV than my cards justify, because my decisions are better than my opponents. (If it is me doing the outplaying.) This includes all decisions; folds, checking, check-raises, calls, raises and re-raises, and decisions not to raise or re-raise, but only call.

Ejnar Pik, Southern-Docks.

[Monty Cantsin]

[ QUOTE ]
...you must win the hand or any hands you lose must result in winning larger pots later in the game


[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. I think outplaying someone is mostly getting more money out of them when you are ahead and losing less money when you are behind. Occasionally it means winning the hand where you might have otherwise lost it, but that's only one aspect of outplaying someone, not the whole thing or even the most important thing.

/mc

[Louie Landale]

I usually restrict "outplaying" an opponent to mean I generally know what he has and what he's thinking quite a bit more than he knows what I have and what I'm thining, and can extract extra or lose less during the hand because of it.

For example, if I know he's got an over-pair I'll tend to NEVER slow-play since I may get in a few extra raises along the way. Or if I figure he's bluffing or tends to bluff way too much I'll just call to snag the extra river bet; or raise him light to move the hangers-on.

I don't use "outplay" to mean "play better" in a general sense. With this definition you cannot "outplay" the guy checking and calling blind to the river, even though you are clearly playing better.

I didn't see the finals, but using my definition the Pistons didn't outplay LA just because they are the better team and could say rebound and shoot better, but they "outplayed" them if they successfully nullified some LA strength such as making Shak shoot from 8' instead of his prefered 6', or exaggerated their strength such as positioning before the shot so as to get an extra half step on the likely fast break.

My definition does NOT necissarily mean "making a move" such as Brunson suggests, but it can mean that at times.

- Louie

[jdl22]

Good responses guys. I realised after reading them that I am somewhat off. I should say that you must
- force FTOP mistakes
- win the pot
or
- make good lay downs that your opponents can't/don't make

As a corollary you don't get trapped for many bets with marginal hands. This would allow you to play something like ATo if you can outplay your opponents in the sense that you won't be capping (or continuing) it when the flop is Axy and it's 3 bet to you by tight players in a small pot.

[Reef]

can also be making them call with a 2nd best hand or lay down one that's better than yours

[tardigrade]

I think maybe the most abstract definition would be to for each player take the total difference in EV between their play and FTOP play. If your overall delta EV is less negative than your opponent's, then you have outplayed him.

For instance, if you semi-bluff on the turn and your opponent folds a better hand, you have taken a small EV hit when compared to FTOP, but your opponent has taken a massive one.

Likewise, if your opponent draws against the odds and you don't pay him off when he hits, then you've outplayed him, etc.

[Pokergod]

I've always heard to "outplay" someone is to make them lay down a hand that would otherwise beat you at the showdown. This is a very impractical concept in the smaller limit games in which two or three players see every showdown. In the bigger games, where players are very much aware of the value of saving a bet, it is possible to make them lay down a winner. Hence, you have "outplayed" them.

-PG