Nasty people

[Al Schoonmaker]

Cris,

This thread and the article that started it have been both astonishing and appalling. I had no idea of how frequently people act intolerably, and it never crossed my mind that they did it online.

I am actually embarrassed by my naivite. I should have known better, but politeness is such a natural part of my life that I have naive expectations.

Several years ago I made a nasty remark to a dealer. She had made a serious mistake, but my remark was out of line and not at all the way I normally act. About twenty minutes later she was sitting at an empty table, and I walked over and apologized. She was startled, almost embarrassed by my apology. Apparently, she wasn't used to apologies, even when they were only proper action.

That is just plain terrible. Most of us make and receive apologies regularly. They should be the norm, not the exception.

Thanks for your post.

Al

[PokerFish]

This is a topic that is near and dear to my heart. I dealt poker for many years in Las Vegas and on the tournament trail. I was abused more often that I care to remember and seldom backed by management. Finally, it drove me from that part of the business. I am finding it increasingly evident that the good dealers don't want to deal anymore in the cardrooms that still allow abuse and that is partly why the tournament trail dealers are not as good as they once were. More abuse and less money, and the players cry. On Card Player Cruises, we have a policy of no abuse and we stick to it strictly. Seldom do we have a problem but when we do, we deal with it right away. We never have a second problem with the same customer, never. It works if you enforce no abuse. It truly does. Some management feels that they don't want to run off players. What I believe is happening is that the good customers are the ones being run off. I know that there are places I won't play anymore as I can't stand the war zone. I play in the places where it is fun... they do still exist. If you are playing where there is a behavior problem, rather than getting mad, talk to the management about it. See what they say. Then, see if they react. If they don't, use your feet to vote and take your business elsewhere. While a cardroom is not a house of worship, it is a gathering place for adults who want to have a good time and relax. While occasional outbursts are to be expected, there is a line that should never be crossed. Reward, with your business, the cardrooms that enforce that line.

With the New Year approaching, let's all, once again, try to have more respect for those around us. Even when we are hot and stuck.

[Clarkmeister]

Mason, I respectfully disagree with your sentiment here.

"Hi Felicia:

I know all the management in The Mirage Poker Room quite well, and Donna Harris, Director of Poker Operations, is not only a close friend but one of our authors."

And I think this not only taints your view, it also in all likelihood means you rarely see the side of Mirage management that many others see. The initial poster is far from alone in his/her observations.

"They strive to run a first class room, and in my opinion have succeeded in achieving this goal."

I strongly disagree. While there is good and bad in every room, and I term many of the Mirage room employees "friends", this is not run as a first class room. It is not my intention to write an essay on the many flaws in the way the Mirage is run, but it is my opinion that the Mirage is a poorly run room, and that stems mostly from the shift managers. Ultimately, Donna is responsible for them. The room is, in my opinion, run worse than almost every other large room I have visited in California and Arizona. I played there nearly every day for well over a year. I still play there 2-5x a month. I have no reason to lie, especially since I am quite sure that several people in that room know that I post under this handle.

"However, no poker room can stop certain undesirables from coming in and playing. But I do know that once a problem is spotted, neither Donna nor any of her staff will tolerate it. They do have the best interests of the players in mind, and Donna strongly believes that a well run poker room in all aspects benefits everyone involved, and this includes the players, the employees of the poker room, and the casino/hotel where the room is located."

That may be her intention, but I am telling you that the incidents described earlier in this thread are not at all rare. I saw a similar incident myself not more than 3 weeks ago at the 20-40. It was handled in a similarly unsatisfactory manner.

"Now with that being said I wasn't present for the particular incident that you describe, but I suggest that the next time you're in town that you vist The Mirage Poker Room again and spend a few minutes with Donna Harris. I think your perceptions will change."

Again, I have absolutely nothing negative to say about Donna herself based on my limited interaction with her. I can only tell you that the initial poster is not voicing a unique complaint.

Regards,

Clark

[FeliciaLee]

[ QUOTE ]
"Hi Felicia:

I know all the management in The Mirage Poker Room quite well, and Donna Harris, Director of Poker Operations, is not only a close friend but one of our authors."

And I think this not only taints your view, it also in all likelihood means you rarely see the side of Mirage management that many others see. The initial poster is far from alone in his/her observations.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, the name "Felicia" and the pic didn't give it away that I'm a woman? LOL [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

In all seriousness though, since I posted about the Mirage (one post a few months ago, not long after it happened, then another post just a couple of weeks ago in reponse to Greg "Fossilman"), people have come out of the woodwork to tell me their own Mirage horror stories.

I get anonymous e-mails, and writers willing to leave their names. I have also run into quite a few people in live cardrooms. Some of them ask if I am the "Felicia" on 2+2 who posted about the Mirage. Then they tell me their horror story. Others have told me stories when we started discussing certain cardrooms and the subject came up.

It is amazing how people are finally starting to come out and tell the truth about some of the things they witness. This is not just at the Mirage, naturally, but everywhere. It seems like less and less people are willing to tolerate "old school" poker players who abuse dealers and other players. People are busting angleshooters and colluders. Players are pointing out marked cards at the table.

I think maybe once the players band together to do something about abuse, cardrooms will follow.

Thanks for your post, Clark!

[Clarkmeister]

I have pictures turned off in my viewer options. I should have figured from Felicia though. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Mason Malmuth]

Felicia:

I have problems with your post. And it's not quite what you might think.

When it comnes to poker/Internet posting, I have been attacked more than anyone. I have read literally thousands of posts about myself that were totally untrue. But what's interesting is that most of the negative posters about me were copycats. People I never knew, or hardly knew, would join in on the attack once someone came up with something negative. I've read how I never tip, how I'm rude to everyone, how I have no friends, how I lived in a filthy studio apartment, how I only drove old junky beat up cars, how I run our business in a totally unethical manner, how I sell old out of print editions, how our authors at Two Plus Two would do anything to get off the yoke I put them in, how I only give good reviews to our books and give all non-Two Plus Two books bad reviews, how I flash my cards at the table, and the list goes on.

So what I'm saying is if you put a negative post up about a make believe cardroom my guess is that you would get some feedback from a few people telling you their even worse experiences. It's just the nature of the Internet.

Now with that being said, if you have a problem with The Mirage Poker Room I believe I can put you in touch with Donna Harris who is Director of Poker Operations where you can discuss the problem with her. And if there is a problem, I guarantee it will be fixed.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Batman]

Funny, i read in Sklansky's PGL about how he is actually happy when a player verbally abuses a dealer, and he tells us the logical reasons why he feels this way. But can one of you publish some constructive essay about the best thing good players should do especially if the floormen don't take action?

[Batman]

[ QUOTE ]
Felicia:

I have problems with your post. And it's not quite what you might think.

When it comnes to poker/Internet posting, I have been attacked more than anyone. I have read literally thousands of posts about myself that were totally untrue. But what's interesting is that most of the negative posters about me were copycats. People I never knew, or hardly knew, would join in on the attack once someone came up with something negative. I've read how I never tip, how I'm rude to everyone, how I have no friends, how I lived in a filthy studio apartment, how I only drove old junky beat up cars, how I run our business in a totally unethical manner, how I sell old out of print editions, how our authors at Two Plus Two would do anything to get off the yoke I put them in, how I only give good reviews to our books and give all non-Two Plus Two books bad reviews, how I flash my cards at the table, and the list goes on.

So what I'm saying is if you put a negative post up about a make believe cardroom my guess is that you would get some feedback from a few people telling you their even worse experiences. It's just the nature of the Internet.

Now with that being said, if you have a problem with The Mirage Poker Room I believe I can put you in touch with Donna Harris who is Director of Poker Operations where you can discuss the problem with her. And if there is a problem, I guarantee it will be fixed.

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

Its amazing how so many people have a beef with you. Maybe some readers werent able to process poker information and they lost and became bitter about it.

I've been winning since I've read 2+2 books so I'm not mad at you.

best wishes,
Batman

[Mason Malmuth]

[ QUOTE ]
And I think this not only taints your view, it also in all likelihood means you rarely see the side of Mirage management that many others see. The initial poster is far from alone in his/her observations.


[/ QUOTE ]

Comon Clark:

That statement just isn't true. Not only was I there on opening day at The Mirage, but I also played a great deal at The Golden Nuggett before there was a Mirage. And as for major cardrooms in Las Vegas, I played much poker at The Hilton, The Horseshoe, Caesars, Ballys, and the Stardust when all of these rooms were major centers of poker action. If you read my Poker Essays books you will see many articles criticizing the way some cardrooms were run, and all poker room managers who know me will tell you that I am not shy about letting them know where I think they need improvement, and this includes a few tournament directors as well.

In fact, I believe that I have been a major force in encouraging cardrooms to run their operations better nationwide, and to treat their customers better.

Also, for what its worth, I began to play poker in the old days of Gardena where players were simply brutalized by cardroom management. So I do know what a poorly run cardroom is like.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Batman:

You need to read my Poker Essays books. There are a number of essays that address this issue. "Cardrooms and the Pros" in the first Poker Essays book comes to mind.

Best wishes,
Mason