Collusion or just being friendly?

[autobet]

I have seen this happen in card rooms. Bay 101 in San Jose to name one.

From a competitive point of view, this always bothers me as an outsider. Even though it is "between the brothers", it makes you wonder if the rest of the game is on the up and up. Are there going to be any teaming/signaling when two of them are in a pot with an outsider?

From a social point of view, it is less bothersome. A lot of people look at chopping the blinds, or not betting with your buddies when heads up as being friendly...Also, I'm sure a lot of players don't have a lot of money (and are losing players), so they are looking stretch out their gambling dollar by not playing too many pots.

[midwestkc]

what casino is this out of curiosity.

[eleventy]

I'd like to know also. I'm in St Louis. I've only played limit but want to make sure to avoid this game if I try NL.

[SpeakEasy]

Harrah's North Kansas City.

I really don't think there is intentional collusion/cheating by most of the Regulars, but there are some that I cannot be so certain, which is why I raise this issue here.

I'm having good fortune in this game, so I'll probably keep quiet unless something clearly crosses the line to my detriment. A few of these Regulars are routinely the Table Police. They do know the rules, and any attempt to challenge them would probably be met with a recitation of the rules, and an explanation of how they are not being broken. I think these guys are pushing it, and they (probably unknowingly) have run off at least one player.

AaronBrown, your post was very helpful. "If it's honest talk it's out-and-out cheating." This is probably the line they will (or have) crossed.

Its never been a hand that I've been involved in, but I've heard comments from one Regular to another that clearly signals what they will do based on the other Regular's actions. Something chatty like -- "Don't you raise, or I'm out!" = I have a moderate hand, raise if you are strong so you can isolate the third non-Regular limper. Things like that.

[midwestkc]

hmmm...never played there, usually go to Ameristar, though I don't play B & M a whole lot.

[toiletduck]

Literally the exact same thing happens in our local casino - generally the Chinese guys collude in this manner. It's definately and undisputably collusion - but the problem is the house takes no interest.
Their stated stance is that "We provide the table, you pay rental to use the table, the rest is up to you". No house dealers, [chinese] players take it in turns [and take extortionate rake].

However, they don't seem to be malicious, and they're godawful. I still play and generally do well in the cash games.

The problem is in the MTT at the start of the night - I've stopped playing these because this "checking down" effectively means chinese players don't pay blinds. Being live poker in a poxy casino, you START with 10bb stacks.. and it gets worse from there. So, malicious or otherwise, their collusion gives them an unbeatable edge here.

My thoughts are I'd get rid of this if I could, it creates a reasonable amount of -ev to non-colluders - but what can you do?
Dave

[Dov]

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Their stated stance is that "We provide the table, you pay rental to use the table, the rest is up to you".

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players take it in turns [and take extortionate rake]

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I'm not sure what 'extortionate' is, but if you mean very high (exorbitant), then what are they providing you for your rental?

A surface, some chips, and a deck of cards?

Are you the only english speaker there? I don't see how you could possibly be a long term winner in this environment. How do you know the players aren't actively manipulating the deck while they discuss it in chinese?!

I would never play there again under any circumstances.

[senjitsu]

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When a pot is heads-up against two Regulars, they will call out “check it down” and not bet. They will frequently even turn their hands face up on the table and tell the dealer to just run out the cards. This does not happen between a Regular and a non-Regular. This is an open effort to save the Regulars from taking money from each other, and instead go after the money on the table from the non-Regulars.


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You could make the same argument about two players chopping the blinds. So long as there are no other players in the hand, there are no other players to whom it is detrimental. While soft playing your friends is against the spirit of poker, some people do it. I fail to see how it would make them more successful in "going after" your or other players' money
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Sometimes its called out pre-flop: “If you raise, I will fold this hand.”


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This is collusion, and should be reported to the floor... everything else in that paragraph is just coffee housing, and not worth worrying about provided it does not happen during the hand.
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Thoughts?

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Yeah... you have a couple of knuckle-heads who soft play each other, reveal their strategy to the table, and are probably playing for fun and not money. Who cares?

If they're actively trying to work together to take money off a decent player, they would probably do little but slow their losses (after all, if they had the conceptual grasp of the game necessary to collude effectively, they wouldnt need to collude to make money)... as it stands, they're probably doing what they do for social reasons, and are costing themselves even more money than they would otherwise.
I would say eat their bankrolls, and thank god for making all the sparrows and all the little fishes.

jc

[senjitsu]

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I'm not sure what 'extortionate' is, but if you mean very high (exorbitant), then what are they providing you for your rental?

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ex·tor·tion·ate: 1. Characterized by extortion 2.Exorbitant; immoderate: "extortionate interest rates."

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Are you the only english speaker there? I don't see how you could possibly be a long term winner in this environment. How do you know the players aren't actively manipulating the deck while they discuss it in chinese?!


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I see your point, but i think you're assuming the worst. Its easy to see how he _could_ be a long term winner there... there could be a bunch of non-english speaking players there who play poorly in general but more poorly against one another. I guess, if you're in a card room that allows non english at the table, you can never "know" that your opponents aren't don everest-like figures trying to scam you out of your money with subtle collusion. But if the game's profitable, and if the players in it are in their game frame and not their social frame, then id just count my blessings.