Collusion or just being friendly?

[SpeakEasy]

I play about once every three weeks in a live $500 max-buy-in NLHE game. I’ve played enough to know several faces and their playing styles. In the last few games, I’ve witnessed these type of activities amongst about 4-5 regular players, some of which are always in this game (the “Regulars”):

When a pot is heads-up against two Regulars, they will call out “check it down” and not bet. They will frequently even turn their hands face up on the table and tell the dealer to just run out the cards. This does not happen between a Regular and a non-Regular. This is an open effort to save the Regulars from taking money from each other, and instead go after the money on the table from the non-Regulars.

Some of the Regulars openly discuss with other Regulars what they would have done after a hand is over, when other non-Regulars were in the pot. “I would have folded if you raised me on the flop.” “I checked the flop so you could bet and take the pot.” Sometimes its called out pre-flop: “If you raise, I will fold this hand.” None of this discussion clearly crosses the line into cheating or open collusion, and it could easily be interpreted as the type of normal banter that goes on at any table. But the nature of this conversation suggests collusion -- one Regular telling to another Regular what he means by certain actions, so they can effectively isolate the non-Regulars that are in the pot.

I hesitate to say anything, mainly because I am routinely taking their money, Regular or not -- leave a good thing alone. It smacks of collusion, but its done in the open and I’m not detecting any hidden funny business (not that I have any experience at noticing cheating).

One other player who used to play in this game says he stays away because of these guys openly checking it down with each other heads-up, but not with him or others that are not "part of their group". I think he senses cheating, and has just decided to stay away.

Thoughts?

[chopchoi]

i don't like it, but as lon as they're doing it in the open, and it doesn't hurt you, I don't think you need to speak up against it if you don't want to. My guess is that the guy running the game is probably one of the "regulars." If so, saying something isn't going to do any good anyway. Furthermore, this isn't a tourney, so the other players are free to get up and cash in their chips if they want to.

[KneeCo]

I would have zero interest in playing in this game, but if you're making money, more power to you I guess.

[RiverDood]

As long as you can take money out of this game, keep playing.

Don't bite when they ask you if you want to play in the "special" $5,000 buyin.

[ChuckyB]

If you keep winning money, keep playing. If they want to give information about their games to their buddies (and you can hear it and learn from it) keep going.

I do hate those games as well. I like it when my friends try to punish me for playing in the game. Treat it like an "earning game" as opposed to a "learning game".

And definitely avoid the $5,000 special game the writer before me mentioned.

[Dov]

What you describe is collusion. Even if they don't raise you off your hand to get heads up with another regular.

I used to play in home games like this and stopped going when they kept it up. This isn't poker and the only way you will win in this game is when the deck clobbers you over the head.

You should say something to them, and if they don't stop it, then you should find another game.

[SpeakEasy]

Something I guess I didn't make clear -- this is in a casino. Since Missouri still has a "$500 loss limit" (can only buy $500 in chips every 2 hours -- a holdover from the 2-hour "riverboat cruise" concept), the $500 and $1000 NLHE games are the "feature table" at this casino on Friday and Saturday nights, respectively.

Some of the responses so far may assume this is a home game. (There is zero chance of a $5000 NLHE game until Missouri drops the $500-loss limit.)

Change any answers?

[grimel]

This is in a casino? The casino is allowing this open blatent collusion of the regulars against the new players? I'd find another casino; at least another table.

[AaronBrown]

You described three different kinds of behavior. An agreement, even informal, for two players to always check it down in showdowns is not legal, but doesn't make any difference to you. It's perfectly legal if two people are in the pot for one to offer a split; the only difference here is there seems to be an unspoken agreement. What does hurt you if they do this in three way pots.

Talking after the hand about what you would have done is also legal, as long as it's open. If you tell one person your cards, you should tell everyone. If there's some implied negotiation about future collusion, that's wrong, but it doesn't hurt you as long as you can hear everything.

Talking during the hand about what you will do is not legal. If it's just banter, so people often do the opposite of what they say, it's illegal but not harmful. If it's honest talk it's out-and-out cheating.

But remember, cheaters are the easiest people to beat. You don't stalk away from the table with outraged honor or pull your sixgun, you smile and take their money. That's not only profitable, it's justice.

[NoRiverRats]

In a casino this is completely unacceptable - I can't believe management allows this to happen. Is it a small room dependant on business from these guys?