the real simon trumper

[Masquerade]

BarryG has always seemed the most level-headed top player. Almost immune to tilt and the inane postings here on other sites. But 'Aces' has finally managed to land a major blow and Barry is completely wigging out!! This is so funny!! Actually telling the guy the next day he should be thrown out! Truly Hellmuthian.

If Barry or anyone else had a problem with the time he was taking just call a clock on him.

And Barry didnt call because he wanted to show how discourteous he'd been. He called because the pause had put doubt in his mind and caused him to change his previously decided action. THAT is what he can't stand and all this huffing and puffing about discourtesy is to try to distract attention from how he was outplayed.

[NCAces]

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I'm a huge fan of yours, and Simon may have been wrong, but either you or the ESPN writer did him a great disservice.


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"great"? c'mon. i think we're blowing this a little out of proportion. this is a minor disservice at best.

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I am not sure it's worth arguing about, but let's see:

- And ESPN article is written about it ... we ain't talking Jessee May ... we're talking ESP frickin N
- The next day in the tournament the tournament director comes up to you and tells you people have been complaining and you have to defend yourself instead of concentrating on winning
- Barry is very respected in the poker world which means most people are going to believe him at first, even though it now appears to have been way overstated
- people are theatening to kick his teeth in (per Barry's post)
- his daughter was crying and afraid (per Barry's post)

Not to mention he has to deal with nits like us in the 2+2 WPT forum, and Phil Phillips weighs in against him.

On second thought, I will argue with you ... it was a great disservice. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

NCAces

[templar999]

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could it just be that two nice poker players by all accounts each lost track of time at a tense moment?

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Uh, no. From Simon's perspective, what's tense about it? He made the nut card and he knows he's a lock. It can't be anything but a deliberate maneuver.

It is absolutely a commons problem. Is Trumper's isolated delay a problem in and of itself? Certainly not, although I can understand why Barry is peeved. If this behavior becomes routine, the game is ruined. And it puts bystanders in the position of being either abusers or victims: if you don't follow Simon's example, you're liable to be a victim; and if you do, you're an abuser.

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Howard,

i'm not sure about how you and others feel, but in a tournament, i often feel more tense when i turn the over full house on a flop than when i turn nothing on the flop. the tension comes from, hmm, what's the best way to get all of my opponents' chips into the middle. knowing you're a lock doesnt make it any less tense. and since i'm only going by what was written on ESPN and what BarryG and Simon have posted here and clearly have no first hand information, FWIW, i agree that Simon's actions were deliberate. i was just noting the possibility that he himself might have lost track of how much time he was taking to raise Barry with the nuts. as i said, if he did take ten minutes, then shame on him.

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"tragedy of the commons"

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sadly, i'm only being a little sarcastic.

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this remark was meant as "most of the time what paulp is talking about is way over my head that i'm glad i finally know what he's talking about in a particular post." as for the commons problem, i dont think anyone is disagreeing.

respectfully,
temp

[Daliman]

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While I understand that what Trumper did is lame and stupid, I don't understand why Greenstein didn't call the clock.

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He was granting him a courtesy, believing he actually had the difficult decision he was pretending to have. No good turn goes unpunished.

More importantly, the problem is not solved by calling the clock. This same issues comes up quite a bit in the big mixed game. If you're playing 2-7 and make a 75432 on the last draw, and you raise and get re-raised, it is NOT OK to go into the tank for a while and then re-raise again. Someone who did that after being warned would be badgered out of the game.

Is that problem solved by calling the clock on people if they don't act immediately? Not a bit. If you're more likely to get the last call if you do it (and you are) then now everyone has to do it lest they be at a disadvantage.

Burning clock to fake a tough decision is lame, lame, lame. It's already the case that 95% of the rulebook exists only because lamers make it necessary. I'm sure before long that'll describe 99.9% of the rulebook.

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Lame or not, It got the rest of Barry's chips, which no other play would have. It's not illegal, even if it WAS ten minutes, and Barry had the right to call a clock at any time. I don't particularly care for the play either, but it did the job quite legally that could not have been done otherwise. I'd gladly be badgered out of a game after a play like this. It's not even CLOSE to an angle shot.

as a bit of a corollary to this, after watching and hearing about how Bill Gazes plays, I would call a clock on him every single time he took more than 15 seconds on a decision after the first time he took more than 2 minutes for a routine one. Antonio annoys the hell out of me, but the way Gazes was playing in the tourneys Antonio won was ludicrous. I've never seen or heard of a player waiting for a raise amount to be set out after raise was called calling a clock on the raiser, but it was entirely appropriate. I realize some of it is to get under other people's skin, and AE is one i have zero problem with that about, but Gazes was getting out of hand.

You have the option to call a clock. If you think that time thinking is being abused, use it. Don't bitch if you don't. Simple as that. Self-governance at its finest.


It's a sad day that I disagree with Paul and Barry. Maybe other things will change now too, like I'll beat a limit game!

[shant]

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Agree.. I never heard of the guy until this past week, and the first impression of him wasn't good.

Good post, and I don't think ST was out of line doing what he did to, "Get The Chips In!"

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You really are the worst poster on this forum. I hope all the bad things in life happen to you and only you.