ATTENTION

[SheetWise]

First, let me say that I love the 2+2 site. I have found this to be a community where I can both pitch and catch with the best I've ever experienced -- and many of those who respond actually understand/expand/amplify the nuance, which I find exciting. Hell, I find simply being understood exciting.

DEFINITIONS
After spending a lot of time both reading and commenting on definitions -- this site should have a Wikipedia style "gamblers" dictionary. I'm pretty sure Wikipedia would agree to host it.

Specifically - We should define terms such as:
Advantage
Drop
EV
Expectation
Hold
HA
Handle
Win

And ...

[Cyrus]

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I find simply being understood exciting.


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You don't know the hard work involved.

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Meantime, to help you in your noble endeavour to educate the gambling public on definitions of gambling terminology, here's a link to a Blackjack Glossary. I wrote a lot of entries, eg Hold... (You might find the entry for Target particularly intriguing; it's a system not unlike those used in tax avoidance.)

Feel free to recommend improvements and/or alterations therein.

[SheetWise]

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Meantime, to help you in your noble endeavour to educate the gambling public ...

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Please don't bother Cyrus -- I was hoping a definitions page would be helpful for you. You see, your problem is that you directed me to a site that ... well, let's use your words;

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I wrote a lot of entries, eg Hold...

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So, I click the link and go to Hold ...

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Hold. The amount of money won by the casino, often expressed in terms of the percentage of total wagers made in the casino. It can also be expressed as a monetary amount.

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Which is simply, wrong. The definition for Drop was worse. I really don't want to get into this with you, because I think you honestly believe that words mean what you want them to mean. That's enough.

[Cyrus]

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So, I click the link and go to Hold ...
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<font color="blue"> Hold. The amount of money won by the casino, often expressed in terms of the percentage of total wagers made in the casino. It can also be expressed as a monetary amount. </font>

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Which is simply, wrong.

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Is wrong ?? Caramba. You no like my little shorthand ? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Let's check out Michael "Wizard Of Odds" Shackleford's definition. Who knows, he might get it right...

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Wizard of Odds: The hold percentage is the ratio of chips the casino keeps to the total chips sold. This is generally measured over an entire shift. For example if blackjack table x takes in $1000 in the drop box and of the $1000 in chips sold the table keeps $300 of them (players walked away with the other $700) then the game's hold is 30%. If every player loses their entire purchase of chips then the hold will be 100%. It is possible for the hold to exceed 100% if players carry to the table chips purchased at another table. A mathematician alone can not determine the hold because it depends on how long the player will sit at the table and the same money circulates back and forth. There is a lot of confusion between the house edge and hold, especially among casino personnel.

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Also, I might add, among tax consultants. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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The definition for Drop was worse.

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You no like Drop too? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] Let's see what was written (by Blackjack player Bootlegger, and not me, but that's not important) and compare :

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<font color="blue"> Drop. The total amount of money and markers cashed in by players. It is also a term used to describe the total amount of money wagered in a casino. At table games, a drop box is used to collect the money. </font>

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OK, the Wizard does not have a separate entry for it, so let's scare up another:

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Dictionary of Gambling Drop 1. The total amount of money and markers cashed in by players. 2. Term used to describe the total amount of money wagered in a casino. At table games, a drop box is used to collect the money.

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Hmm, they look suspiciously similar. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Will you advise me what's wrong or do you prefer to quote me your fee first ?

[HesseJam]

Well, your definition of hold is substantially different from the WoO's definition.

[SheetWise]

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Hold. The amount of money won by the casino, often expressed in terms of the percentage of total wagers made in the casino. It can also be expressed as a monetary amount.

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Drop. The total amount of money and markers cashed in by players. It is also a term used to describe the total amount of money wagered in a casino. At table games, a drop box is used to collect the money.

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Will you advise me what's wrong or do you prefer to quote me your fee first ?

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If you insist. Thanks for the multiple references. I said the definitions were wrong, I didn't mean to imply the misuse of the terms was unique to you. These are common mistakes. The definition being wrong obviously doesn't stop people from copying it (but then if they knew what the terms meant, they wouldn't have to copy).

First of all, "Hold" and "Drop" cannot really be understood without including "Win" (used as a noun) and "Handle", neither of which appear in your "dictionary".

Hold. It is not "often expressed" as a percentage, it is a percentage. If it is not representing a percentage, it's being used incorrectly. The Hold is the percentage Win/Drop. The Hold tells the casino what percentage of the Drop the Win represents. From that definition, you can see that your statement "the percentage of total wagers made in the casino", as well as "It can also be expressed as a monetary amount" are incorrect as well.

Drop. Your statement "The total amount of money and markers cashed in by players" is hard to follow. I don't know about you, but I usually "cash in" at the "cashier", not at the table. At the table I sometimes buy-in. The accuracy of your statement "It is also a term used to describe the total amount of money wagered in a casino", would depend upon what your use of the term "wagered" means. Your "dictionary" doesn't include the term, but a lot of people might think in context that you mean "wagers", or "bets", in which case you are defining the Handle. If your use of the term means "buy-ins", it would make sense -- but you've used the wrong term. When cash is played at a table, the cash becomes part of the Handle, but is not included in the Drop unless it loses. Many clubs insist that cash is Dropped before play so that these numbers aren't skewed.

Your inclusion of the sentence "At table games, a drop box is used to collect the money." leads me to believe that whoever wrote this, their experience is limited to slot machines. In reference to slots the terms are frequently misused because historically it was unique that machines were played with cash and that there was no Drop, so they considered Drop = Handle. The more recent introduction of bill acceptors on slot machines, and the use of tokens has brought the accounting and language back to the traditional usage of Drop, Win, and Hold.

For the correct use of the terms;

Drop = Gaming checks or tokens purchased, cash or credit.
Win = Dollars won.
Hold = Win/Drop
Handle = Sum of all wagers.

Other than on slot machines, the Handle is generally not an available number. The Hold (%) can be used to estimate the Handle based on the known advantage, or (as in the case of blackjack) an estimate of the Handle can be used to extrapolate a win rate.

Win % = Win / Handle

For more information, see http://gaming.unlv.edu/research

[SheetWise]

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Well, (Cyrus,) your definition of hold is substantially different from the WoO's definition.

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To Cyrus, the fact that WoO's definition is correct may be viewed as incidental. The fact that he chose it as a cite I find interesting.

[bennyk]

You guys need to make sure you're citing the Wizard of Odds definitions if you're doing this. A lot of that other dictionary was just plain plagiarized.
bk

[SheetWise]

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You guys need to make sure you're citing the Wizard of Odds definitions if you're doing this.

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WoO is good, and accurate, but it's not always clear. Using the examples given, WoO said -

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Hold. The hold percentage is the ratio of chips the casino keeps to the total chips sold. This is generally measured over an entire shift. For example if blackjack table x takes in $1000 in the drop box and of the $1000 in chips sold the table keeps $300 of them (players walked away with the other $700) then the game's hold is 30%. If every player loses their entire purchase of chips then the hold will be 100%. It is possible for the hold to exceed 100% if players carry to the table chips purchased at another table. A mathematician alone can not determine the hold because it depends on how long the player will sit at the table and the same money circulates back and forth. There is a lot of confusion between the house edge and hold, especially among casino personnel.

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They could have said -

Hold. Casino accounting term. The total money won or lost (see Win) expressed as a percentage of total buy-ins (see Drop). Win / Drop.

Drop. Casino accounting term. The total of all gaming checks, tokens, or credits purchased by players (buy-ins) in a game. The term can also be associated with a player or an accounting period.

Buy-in. The purchase of gaming checks (includes tokens &amp; credits) by a player using any cash instrument other than gaming checks of another denomination (see Color).

...

Somebody will have to take a first stab at it -- and then it can be built by posting additions and seeing if there is any disagreement. After reaching a consensus, we would need the moderator to post uncontested terms. Anyone interested? Somebody else take a stab at poker and I'll catch the other games (I'm not good at poker slang).

[Cyrus]

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"Hold" and "Drop" cannot really be understood without including "Win" (used as a noun) and "Handle", neither of which appear in your "dictionary".

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I will state this, for the record: The BJ21.com Glossary is not exhaustive. It contains most of the terms that Stanford Wong thought will help a player understand quicker and better the game of casino 21. The Glossary was put together by Bootlegger, a frequent and long-time bj21.com poster, who submitted most of the entries.

Being the usual anal me, I started submitting additional entries right away, e.g. TARGET, CSM, Cooler, Truncating, Flooring, Rounding, Seconds, slug, "money plays", rainbow bet, Floating Advantage, etc etc. At some point in time, Wong put a stop to the additions and changes to the entries, rationalising that BJ21.com was not a dictionary website and that his glossary was not after Michael Dalton's laurels. (Even though "Your contributions are welcome" is still up, I have not seen any change to it for years.)

I already stated that I did not write the entry for "Drop". I don't think I wrote, perhaps, "Hold" either. But, hush your palpitating heart [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img], I am ever ready to take all bullets directed against either definition! I concede here and now two of the points made about 'em.

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[Hold] is not "often expressed" as a percentage, it is a percentage. If it is not representing a percentage, it's being used incorrectly.

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Casino people or players often refer to a casino's gross monthly earnings as its hold.

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For the correct use of the terms;
Drop = Gaming checks or tokens purchased, cash or credit.
Win = Dollars won.
Hold = Win/Drop
Handle = Sum of all wagers.
For more information, see http://gaming.unlv.edu/research


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Here are the UNLV definitions, from the same link : [ QUOTE ]
Hold % = Win/Drop
Win % (actual) = Win/Handle
H.A. = Theoretical Win % = Limit(Actual Win %) = Limit(Win/Handle)
Hold Percentage [does not equal] House Edge

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Note that the UNLV paper makes it a point to write always Hold Percentage.

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[The] statement "the percentage [won] of total wagers made in the casino" ... [is] incorrect.

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Hold percentage is win over drop; Win percentage is win over handle. Drop is the sum of all the money or credit exchanged for chips; Handle is the total amount of wagers made. The clarification between Win Percentage and Hold Percentage should have been made.

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Your statement "[Drop is] the total amount of money and markers cashed in by players" is hard to follow. I don't know about you, but I usually "cash in" at the "cashier", not at the table. At the table I sometimes buy-in.

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You are right, the correct term should have been "bought in". (Maybe the author meant to say about "the markers cashed in"?)

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[The] inclusion of the sentence "At table games, a drop box is used to collect the money" leads me to believe that whoever wrote this, their experience is limited to slot machines.

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"Whoever wrote this" most probably only meant to make a distinction, in the entry for Drop, between the term Drop and the term Drop Box.


...Now.

...If I recall correctly, we are currently merrily arguing the merits of the BJ21.com glossary [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] because of your understanding of the meaning of the terms House Advantage and Hold, and specifically how they can be altered by amazingly simple means! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] So, to steer this cow back to the trail, kindly point out to us the equations through which, by betting an additional amount of money on Odds, you are changing the house advantage on your Pass line bet. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

You must think you're wreaking havoc to their Hold, right?