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#91
11-23-2005, 02:34 PM
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Re: The arguement that recently convinced me of god\'s existence
[ QUOTE ]
He's equivocating the word "faith". We've been through all this before. He's saying that induction is "faith" (or at least thinking that induction is valid/reasonable is). [/ QUOTE ] No I'm not. I believe the faith required for life is more than just an intellectual admission that one can't prove induction. Everyone has to make some decision about fundamental truth and live by it. This decision can only be made by faith. Even a supposed agnostic who says "I don't know" is making a faith based decision, because he can't know that God can't be known. If he really wasn't sure it would make no sense for him not to spend enormous effort to find out if he's right. 
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#92
11-23-2005, 02:38 PM
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Re: The arguement that recently convinced me of god\'s existence
[ QUOTE ]
However, as I stated in the thread I started earlier today, that the universe is currently ordered is axiomatic [/ QUOTE ] From another thread you said: [ QUOTE ] Induction isn't certainty, though. Axioms are. [/ QUOTE ] Two problems with these statements: 1. If axoms are certain, and order in the universe is an axiom and therefore certain, why wouldn't induction be certain? 2. A bigger problem is the statement that axioms are certain. If that's so, then God certainly exists, because His existence is an axiom.
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#93
11-23-2005, 02:40 PM
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Re: The arguement that recently convinced me of god\'s existence
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Yeah... and we know the universe is ordered by induction. We examine it. Since every oberservation has shown it to be ordered, we induce that it is ordered [/ QUOTE ] As Hume proved and I've argued, you are arguing in a circle. The fact that the sun rose today says nothing about whether it will rise tomorrow unless you assume order, then when the sun rises tomorrow you say, "See, order".
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#94
11-23-2005, 02:40 PM
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Re: The arguement that recently convinced me of god\'s existence
I can't leave this alone...
[ QUOTE ] However, if that knowledge (universe is ordered) is axiomatic, then we *are* certain, and therefore we *are* certain that scientific methods are valid, even if their conclusions aren't 100% true. [/ QUOTE ] You sound like NotReady, now. His axiom is that God exists. Yours is that the Universe is ordered. I'll repeat: I am not 100% certain that the Universe is ordered. I treat it as a fact, however, due to the overwhelming amount of evidence indicating that it is. Would you mind explaining why you think the universe being ordered has to be an axiom, rather than a scientific fact? (Note: a scientific fact is not 100% certain. It is considered to be a fact due to the overhwelming supporting evidence, and therefore, by induction is considered to be a fact.)
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#95
11-23-2005, 02:46 PM
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Re: The arguement that recently convinced me of god\'s existence
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Occam's Razor: "One should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything." [/ QUOTE ] Though I don't believe the Razor is any kind of absolute rule, if it was, it would prove the absolute certainty of God's existence, because what simpler explanation is possible than that one entity (God) explains everything? [/ QUOTE ] Actually, God is an "extra" entity. The Universe exists with or without God. "With God" would mean there is one additional entity.
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#96
11-23-2005, 02:49 PM
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Re: The arguement that recently convinced me of god\'s existence
[ QUOTE ]
Two problems with these statements: 1. If axoms are certain, and order in the universe is an axiom and therefore certain, why wouldn't induction be certain? [/ QUOTE ] Because knowing the universe is ordered, and knowing perfectly all of the rules/laws involved in that order, are two different things. The former doesn't imply the latter. Like with Newtonian physics. They knew at the time that *some* rules were followed, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they knew precisely what the rules were. [ QUOTE ] 2. A bigger problem is the statement that axioms are certain. If that's so, then God certainly exists, because His existence is an axiom. [/ QUOTE ] An axiom is an idea that is self-evidently true. The existence of a God is not self-evidently true, no matter how much you claim it is. This is the part of the argument where we see a really smart guy say really dumb things.
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#97
11-23-2005, 02:51 PM
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Re: The arguement that recently convinced me of god\'s existence
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For the atheist, the most fundamental presupposition is that he (or mankind in general, or certain wise men) has the right to make the final judgment about what's true or false. [/ QUOTE ] You do that as much (if not more, actually) than every atheist. Every time you write on this forum, in fact. [ QUOTE ] And this is a matter of faith, a judgment concerning universal truth that not only can't be proved, but has no supporting evidence. [/ QUOTE ] There goes that "faith" word again. It's like you want to water it down so much so that when someone talks about your "faith", you can be secure in thinking they also have "faith".
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#98
11-23-2005, 02:51 PM
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Re: The arguement that recently convinced me of god\'s existence
[ QUOTE ]
Would you mind explaining why you think the universe being ordered has to be an axiom, rather than a scientific fact? [/ QUOTE ] I did, in the other thread that I guess you don't want to take the time to read. It's obvious that the universe acts in an orderly way and not chaotic (on a macroscopic scale, at least). The existence of life is only one of example of such an obvious fact. Life would not be possible in chaos.
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#99
11-23-2005, 02:52 PM
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Re: The arguement that recently convinced me of god\'s existence
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] He's equivocating the word "faith". We've been through all this before. He's saying that induction is "faith" (or at least thinking that induction is valid/reasonable is). [/ QUOTE ] No I'm not. I believe the faith required for life is more than just an intellectual admission that one can't prove induction. Everyone has to make some decision about fundamental truth and live by it. This decision can only be made by faith. Even a supposed agnostic who says "I don't know" is making a faith based decision, because he can't know that God can't be known. If he really wasn't sure it would make no sense for him not to spend enormous effort to find out if he's right. [/ QUOTE ] How much effort have you spent learning every other religion to see if they are right? Not much, I'm sure, since your faith prevents you from finding the truth.
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#100
11-23-2005, 02:56 PM
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Re: The arguement that recently convinced me of god\'s existence
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Yeah... and we know the universe is ordered by induction. We examine it. Since every oberservation has shown it to be ordered, we induce that it is ordered [/ QUOTE ] As Hume proved and I've argued, you are arguing in a circle. The fact that the sun rose today says nothing about whether it will rise tomorrow unless you assume order, then when the sun rises tomorrow you say, "See, order". [/ QUOTE ] We've already argued this. You have faith in induction -AND- God. Different types of faith, though. Your faith in induction is supported by rational examination of the world. Your faith in God is supported by your brainwashing throughout the years of reading religious texts, and limiting your environmental exposure to things that may shake that faith.
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