An Odd Flop Situation With KTs

[Aces McGee]

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On the flop, I don't see a lot of value in a 3-bet. The TAG will never fold a better hand (would he fold KJ to a check/3-bet? I doubt it), and any hand he does fold has at most 3 outs against you (Ax). Flops don't get any dryer than this; no reasonable draws exist. If you cold-call, TAG will be getting 11:1 to call -- not enough for a 3-outer.

So is BB check-raising with a weak K? Possibly. I'd cold-call here. If TAG 3-bets, then you're in big trouble, as he wouldn't do it with QQ/JJ, so you're dominated by AK/AA/KQ almost all the time. Pray he has AA and turn a K or T. If TAG just calls, then raise a non-Broadway turn. If BB keeps going after you, dump it. If he calls (and TAG will fold unless he's beating you), then take a free showdown.

That's my line, anyway. I'm sure everyone will hate it.

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This is roughly what I was thinking.

Check-three-betting this flop probably over-represents your hand, but not enough to get the preflop raiser to fold a better hand. And allowing him the opportunity to act on being checkraised tells you quite a bit about his hand, I think, at least relative to yours.

-McGee

[Nick C]

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I don't mind the preflop limp.

On the flop, I don't see a lot of value in a 3-bet. The TAG will never fold a better hand (would he fold KJ to a check/3-bet? I doubt it), and any hand he does fold has at most 3 outs against you (Ax). Flops don't get any dryer than this; no reasonable draws exist. If you cold-call, TAG will be getting 11:1 to call -- not enough for a 3-outer.

So is BB check-raising with a weak K? Possibly. I'd cold-call here. If TAG 3-bets, then you're in big trouble, as he wouldn't do it with QQ/JJ, so you're dominated by AK/AA/KQ almost all the time. Pray he has AA and turn a K or T. If TAG just calls, then raise a non-Broadway turn. If BB keeps going after you, dump it. If he calls (and TAG will fold unless he's beating you), then take a free showdown.

That's my line, anyway. I'm sure everyone will hate it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the idea of cold-calling to see how the TAG will react to the checkraise.

A couple of thoughts: The TAG won't be reacting just to the checkraise but should also be taking our cold-call into account. This hopefully (given Private Joker's plan) will in fact dissuade a 3-bet from QQ/JJ, even if the TAG thinks the BB is psychotic.

Also, I personally would not fold heads-up versus the BB if he 3-bet the turn.

Edit: I would actually prefer to 3-bet if I knew the TAG had a 3-outer. (He has implied odds with that 3-outer and I want the seemingly LAG big blind to myself.) But we don't know that.

[jskills]

2 back to you on the flop: You can fold now.

It apears BB either has (1) a set (2) 2 pair (3) a better King. He's not raising with a draw of any kind. I can't see paying to continue, since you're likely way behind and you're still risking getting caught in the middle of BB and TAG's action here.

BTW - PF doesn't suck too much, but it's probably best to fold KTs in EP unless you're feeling very good about getting other limpers.

[damaniac]

I don't disagree with folding, necessarily (still not sure), but if you are a somewhat Laggy BB, you are raising any K you call with preflop and sometimes a PP b/w 6 and K too. Even a decent player will probably call with worse suited kings in the BB in this scenario. Now, whether or not he will have a worse K often enough to combine with the raiser also having a worse hand to make playing on worthwhile is more interesting, but I see no reason that he can't raise K8/K9/88 or something here a lot of the time.

[jskills]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't disagree with folding, necessarily (still not sure), but if you are a somewhat Laggy BB, you are raising any K you call with preflop and sometimes a PP b/w 6 and K too. Even a decent player will probably call with worse suited kings in the BB in this scenario. Now, whether or not he will have a worse K often enough to combine with the raiser also having a worse hand to make playing on worthwhile is more interesting, but I see no reason that he can't raise K8/K9/88 or something here a lot of the time.

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But when you're facing two bets - realistically - how often is top pair T kicker going to be good?

[shant]

Is this the Party 10/20?

[W. Deranged]

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Is this the Party 10/20?

[/ QUOTE ]

This was Party 5/10.

[MisterKing]

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[ QUOTE ]
Is this the Party 10/20?

[/ QUOTE ]

This was Party 5/10.

[/ QUOTE ]

This feels oddly familiar to a hand I played last night. 'Course maybe that's true for everyone, who knows. Was this on the bad beat tables? Of course, you'd have known it was a 2+2er if you'd played the hand against me, given my stupid screen name on Party (hint: it contains the term "SupBro").

FWIW, I like the coldcall & re-evaluate on the turn. I am calling and c/f the turn if TAG 3-bets the flop and BB just calls. Folding to TAG 3-bet and BB cap.

[gopnik]

If you 3-bet the flop and TAG calls, you are done with the hand. (your c/r after c/r looks VERY VERY scary and only a BIG hand will call you). By done I mean fold to a bet on the turn UI.

If BB caps and leads out on the turn, you are done with the hand.

If BB just calls (TAG folds)and checks to you on the turn, you bet.

Thus, I like to 3 bet the flop because after that the hand becomes easier to play.

[Jake (The Snake)]

Some of the preflop discussion in this thread is laughable, imo. KTs can absolutely be played UTG. There are possibly some tables where I'd fold it, but not many. I'd limp with a lot more crap than KTs, that's for sure.

As for the flop, I think I'd fold, though these are probably the types of flops that make me have a slightly lower WTSD than most 2+2ers. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not.

Anyway, I don't like our position here and the reverse implied odds seem like they might suck pretty bad.