I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!

[Arnfinn Madsen]

Worst defence ever. If Clinton did something wrong, how does that make what Bush made any worse or better. It is irrelevant. You sound like Saddam when he points out the torture made by Americans to justify his own torture. It doesn't make the crime smaller.

[Exsubmariner]

I absolutely love this retort. Let me see how it goes:

First, somebody else posted it before me. OK

Second, I can't read. Since I obviously can't read I obvously can't understand what the words on the pretty computer screen say. I hope Elliot will tell what they mean and he comes through.

Let's see - what Clinton authorized was wiretapping on US soil without a court order, but not really. It doesn't count because of the way the words are arranged in the executive order. OK. I follow that so far. And oh, don't forget Clinton supported having legislation enacted which would give him the power to conduct domestic survellance without the court, too. So all that makes it even more OK.

It gets even better. There are quoted paragraphs where the Clinton Administration states it's oh-so-good intentions to use the power vested in it and keep happy-happy feelings between all branches of Government while it uses that power.

I suddenly remember Orwell for some reason. "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others."
"Four legs good, two legs bad."

Look, we are are war here folks, the only thing stopping the terraists from killing half of us and converting the other half to Islam is GWB.

If it weren't for our Dear Leader, there would be a mushroom cloud over every american city. If it werent for King George, Saddam would be working out of the Oval Office.

[Exsubmariner]

"If it werent for King George, Saddam would be working out of the Oval Office. "

I don't think liberals would see this as a problem provided they got to keep their jobs in the government buereacracy, education system, and legal aparatus. All that matters is that Bush fails. Converting to Islam wouldn't be a problem either, because any religion is meaningless when you have no core beliefs.

[Exsubmariner]

Electing a Clinton to the White House isn't a reason, either.

[ QUOTE ]
I absolutely love this retort.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're welcome.

[ QUOTE ]
Let me see how it goes:

First, somebody else posted it before me. OK

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Indeed.

[ QUOTE ]
Second, I can't read.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who said that? I don't know whether you can read or not. I know only that you are wrong. Whether that is because you can't read or because you are a partisan hack or for some other reason, who can say?

[ QUOTE ]
Since I obviously can't read I obvously can't understand what the words on the pretty computer screen say. I hope Elliot will tell what they mean and he comes through.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're welcome.

[ QUOTE ]
Let's see - what Clinton authorized was wiretapping on US soil without a court order, but not really.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, not at all. What Clinton authorized in the executive order that BluffTHIS linked to and that Drudge relied upon was physical searches -- not wiretapping, on foreign soil or "foreign controlled" soil which I suspect meant things like embassies -- not "in the U.S.".

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't count because of the way the words are arranged in the executive order. OK. I follow that so far.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amazingly, words have meanings and are used to communicate. Is this a new concept?

[ QUOTE ]
And oh, don't forget Clinton supported having legislation enacted which would give him the power to conduct domestic survellance without the court, too. So all that makes it even more OK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, no. Actually, Clinton supported having legislation enacted which brought physical national security searches within the FISA framework. That means, for doemstic searches, with court involvement and with oversight.

[ QUOTE ]

It gets even better. There are quoted paragraphs where the Clinton Administration states it's oh-so-good intentions to use the power vested in it and keep happy-happy feelings between all branches of Government while it uses that power.

[/ QUOTE ]

See above.

[ QUOTE ]
I suddenly remember Orwell for some reason. "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others."
"Four legs good, two legs bad."

[/ QUOTE ]

So do I.

"At this moment, for example, in 1984 (if it was 1984), Oceania was at war with Eurasia and in alliance with Eastasia. In no public or private utterance was it ever admitted that the three powers had at any time been grouped along different lines. Actually, as Winston well knew, it was only four years since Oceania had been at war with Eastasia and in alliance with Eurasia. But that was merely a piece of furtive knowledge which he happened to possess because his memory was not satisfactorily under control. Officially the change of partners had never happened. Oceania was at war with Eurasia: therefore Oceania had always been at war with Eurasia. The enemy of the moment always represented absolute evil, and it followed that any past or future agreement with him was impossible.

The frightening thing, he reflected for the ten thousandth time as he forced his shoulders painfully backward (with hands on hips, they were gyrating their bodies from the waist, an exercise that was supposed to be good for the back muscles) -- the frightening thing was that it might all be true. If the Party could thrust its hand into the past and say of this or that event, it never happened -- that, surely, was more terrifying than mere torture and death?

The Party said that Oceania had never been in alliance with Eurasia. He, Winston Smith, knew that Oceania had been in alliance with Eurasia as short a time as four years ago. But where did that knowledge exist? Only in his own consciousness, which in any case must soon be annihilated. And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed -if all records told the same tale -- then the lie passed into history and became truth. 'Who controls the past,' ran the Party slogan, 'controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.' And yet the past, though of its nature alterable, never had been altered. Whatever was true now was true from everlasting to everlasting. It was quite simple. All that was needed was an unending series of victories over your own memory. 'Reality control', they called it: in Newspeak, 'doublethink'."

Reality is whatever King George says it is. People who are scared of terraists accept it without critical thought. It is up to folks like me and Elliot to keep people from falling for King George's Orwellian traps.

[Exsubmariner]

This is the text of the executive order:

[ QUOTE ]
Office of the Press Secretary

__________________________________________________ ______________________
For Immediate Release February 9, 1995


EXECUTIVE ORDER 12949

- - - - - - -
FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE PHYSICAL SEARCHES


By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution
and the laws of the United States, including sections 302 and 303 of the
Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 ("Act") (50 U.S.C. 1801,
et seq.), as amended by Public Law 103- 359, and in order to provide for
the authorization of physical searches for foreign intelligence purposes
as set forth in the Act, it is hereby ordered as follows:

Section 1. Pursuant to section 302(a)(1) of the Act, the
Attorney General is authorized to approve physical searches, without a
court order, to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of
up to one year, if the Attorney General makes the certifications
required by that section.

Sec. 2. Pursuant to section 302(b) of the Act, the Attorney
General is authorized to approve applications to the Foreign
Intelligence Surveillance Court under section 303 of the Act to obtain
orders for physical searches for the purpose of collecting foreign
intelligence information.

Sec. 3. Pursuant to section 303(a)(7) of the Act, the following
officials, each of whom is employed in the area of national security or
defense, is designated to make the certifications required by section
303(a)(7) of the Act in support of applications to conduct physical
searches:

(a) Secretary of State;

(b) Secretary of Defense;

(c) Director of Central Intelligence;

(d) Director of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation;

(e) Deputy Secretary of State;

(f) Deputy Secretary of Defense; and

(g) Deputy Director of Central Intelligence.

None of the above officials, nor anyone officially acting in that
capacity, may exercise the authority to make the above certifications,
unless that official has been appointed by the President, by and with
the advice and consent of the Senate.


WILLIAM J. CLINTON


THE WHITE HOUSE,
February 9, 1995.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the definition of a physical search:

[ QUOTE ]
in law, written order by an official of a court authorizing an officer to search in a specified place for specified objects and to seize them if found. The objects sought may be stolen goods or physical evidences of the commission of crime (e.g., narcotics). The Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which protects against unreasonable searches and seizures, provides, in effect, that a search warrant may be issued only on oath or affirmation that a crime was probably committed. In Mapp v. Ohio (1961) the U.S. Supreme Court mandated states to exclude from trial evidence obtained in illegal searches, such as those without a proper warrant. This “exclusionary rule” has been the subject of great controversy and subsequent litigation. In recent years, the Supreme Court has narrowed the scope of the rule, in many circumstances permitting the introduction of any evidence gathered in “good faith.” Courts have ruled that a wiretap and the use of a thermal-imaging device to examine a private home from a public street constitutes a search that requires a warrant. Warrants are not required for the gathering of evidence in some circumstances. These exceptions include evidence gathered after a lawful arrest, inspections by customs or border officials, searches made with the suspect's consent, searches of items in plain view, and searches of the belongings of secondary students on school property.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obtained under the definition of SEARCH WARRENT
here. Courts have ruled that a wiretap and the use of a thermal-imaging device to examine a private home from a public street constitutes a search that requires a warrant
Emphasis mine taken from the above definition.

"All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others"

[Exsubmariner]

It is up to people like you to and Elliot to lure people into the Orwellian trap of saying George W. Bush is setting Orwellian traps.

[Roybert]

[ QUOTE ]
Clinton Plays Dictator

[/ QUOTE ]

If you can link to Drudge then I can certainly link to Dailykos ...

Kos debunks RW talking point

[ QUOTE ]
CLINTON DID NOT ORDER WARRANTLESS SEARCHES OF AMERICAN CITIZENS
Here's what Clinton signed:


Section 1. Pursuant to section 302(a)(1) [50 U.S.C. 1822(a)] of the [Foreign Intelligence Surveillance] Act, the Attorney General is authorized to approve physical searches, without a court order, to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of up to one year, if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that section.

You don't have to be a lawyer to understand that Clinton allowed warrantless searches if and only if the AG followed section 302(a)(1). What does section 1822(a) require?


the "physical search is solely directed at premises, information, material, or property used exclusively by, or under the open and exclusive control of, a foreign power or powers." Translation: You can't search American citizens.

and there is "no substantial likelihood that the physical search will involve the premises, information, material, or property of a United States person." Translation: You can't search American citizens.


Moreover, Clinton's warrant waiver consistent with FISA refers only to physical searches. "Physical searches," as defined by 1821(5), exclude electronic surveillance.

CARTER DID NOT AUTHORIZE WARRANTLESS SEARCHES OF AMERICAN CITIZENS
And now, Carter's turn:


1-101. Pursuant to Section 102(a)(1) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1802(a)), the Attorney General is authorized to approve electronic surveillance to acquire foreign intelligence information without a court order, but only if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that Section.

Here, Carter refers to "electronic surveillance," rather than "physical searches" like Clinton. But again, Carter limits the warrantless surveillance to the requirements of Section 1802(a). That section requires:


the electronic surveillance is solely directed at communications exclusively between or among foreign powers. Translation: You can't spy on American citizens.

there is no substantial likelihood that the surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party. Translation: You can't spy on American citizens.


Section 1803(a)(2) requires that the Attorney General report to Congress (specifically, the House and Senate Intelligence Committees) about whether any American citizens were involved, what minimization procedures were undertaken to avoid it and protect their identities, and whether his actions comply with the law.

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