lines bad players take that good players misinterpret

[Guruman]

One of the most difficult (and rewarding) things a poker player can do is to really get inside the mindset of his opponents. Since we seek out bad opposition like good little poker players, I'd like to take a semi-analytical look at some plays that bad players make that look like good plays, but are in fact poorly conceived.

In a general sense, bad players differ from good players by valuing the wrong things. These things (in no specific order) consist of, but are not limited to

winning the hand that they are currently playing.
-bad players want to win every hand that they are involved in, and may bluff carelessly if shown weakness.

showing down
-bad players don't like to be the last one to fold. Really bad players will call you down with seven high and no draw just to see your cards.

folding out worse hands
-bad players would rather win by making a bet and having everyone fold to them. this includes the times that others are drawing dead. It just feels good to flex a little and have everyone run in fear.

hitting a draw
bad players love to hit that big flush or hidden straight, and can be willing to take poor odds and chase just to get the chance to show down the winner and go nuts on the river.

As good players, we value all of these things as well. Just not to the great extent that bad players do, and never at the expense of proper odds or lost bets.

so

just as bad players have similar but fundamentally different poker values than good players do, they take similar lines with radically different thought processes than good players do.

occasionally these lines lead to them accidentally playing perfectly against us [why does that f#$^# fish keep calling my bluffs with bottom pair?]. More often, they are misapplied and result in spewing.

There are a couple of specific lines that I'd like to address, and I'd love to hear other contributions as well. The deeper we can get into that mindset, the greater our ability to exploit it.

Here's my first example:

The Stop'n'Go

defined as:just calling a bet or raise out of position [the stop], and then leading out on the next street [the go].

Good players take this line when they have a moderately made hand and suspects an opponent may be either ahead or drawing. This prevents leading players from reraising, and it prevents drawing players from taking a free card. If an opponent is not capable of betting or raising and taking a free card on the next street with a draw, then this play is not usually recommended.

Bad players do this too. The difference is that the are unmotivated by our possible holdings. Most stop'n'go's from bad players that I've seen come from moderately made hands like middle pair or a mid pp that the bad player is afraid to cap with. The main difference is that bad players can make this move whether or not there is a draw on the board. They also have a hard time folding to a raise under most circumstances. In thier mind, the two cards they hold are worth about one or two bets per street, and they know that if they get capped they may have to fold, so they'd rather just not find that out. they may value showing down more than thier money This mentality may mean that thier hands are more difficult to read, but it also widens thier range to the point that it's often profitable to continue betting and raising with most moderately ok holdings.

another note here. Occasionally they'll stumble into the correct situation for this play with the correct cards, forcing you to fold. If this happens more than once or twice in a short session, they'll notice and start taking shots with worse hands. This probably shouldn't change our strategy much, but it may net us more money when we go into calldown mode against them.

I'll update this as I think I can define more of them. Feel free to add your own! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[waffle]

well thought out post. sorry for this crappy one.

they love, love, love, to bet the river when OoP. i think this relates to your first bolded point above. especially if it's a hu pot on the turn and the turn gets checked through. i think this is an autobet for the guy OoP on the river w/ many players.

[waffle]

also, how about the obvious slowplay:

hu pot, they check through on the flop w/ the initiative and position. if you bet the turn you will be raised.

this is usually bad because their flop check limits their range greatly (they only do it with monsters).

[Guruman]

I like both of these. I'll try to get inside the mind of the bad player a little more with these plays specifically when I get home later.

roight ahhn!

I think one line that many good players take that is often times considered *bad* is playing passively against TAGs at 6-max tables. (Relax, I'm not going to taking this too far).

I've read about 15+ posts in the last two days where villain has been read to be passive. One of the better defenses against 2p2'ers (aside from the TAG v TAG who's #$*& is bigger cap all street line) is sLAPping him. That is, loosening slightly preflop to hit the boards AK-AT miss, and letting the TAG bet for you in heads-up contests. (I'm not saying 94o OOP ... stress the *semi* in semi-loose).

Anyway, good & bad players alike take this effective defense against 6-max TAGs. Good players do it on purpose, while bad players do it by accident.

So, I'm wondering in these 15+ posts of very good, complex & interesting hands, how many of the villains were bad & passive and how many recognized Hero as a money guzzling TAG and played appropriate defense? Hmm...

Whatever, nevermind...

[kapw7]

[ QUOTE ]
especially if it's a hu pot on the turn and the turn gets checked through. i think this is an autobet for the guy OoP on the river w/ many players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whats wrong with that? (HU)

[kapw7]

There's a lot to be learned from bad players.

[waffle]

easily exploitable, pluiss the fact that many of these guys arne't capa leof of bet/folding

[Guruman]

here's one named for bad players.

The Donkbet

defined as: leading out of position without initiative from a previous street.

The only difference between this and the stop and go is that there doesn't have to be a pf or flop aggressor to donk a street. Also known as the "bet out of nowhere"

Good players do this with vulnerable (but possibly showdownable) hands that a villain has likely missed. Usually it takes a non-calling station read and a non-bluff raiser read on the villain to do this with a weak hand.

Ex. villain calls from the CO and hero checks in the BB. Flop is XXY rainbow. Hero bets, villain folds.


Bad players tend not to donk because they think the board missed you though. They aren't thinking about whether or not it makes sense for that flop to have connected with your range. They only see the cards in front of them. This means that most often, they are donking made pairs. They are not worried about folding better hands, they just want to flex with the hand that they are in now, and win without a showdown. Bad players will occasionally use the donk to take shots at you if you fold too much on the flop though.

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Good players may also donk into crowds with strong draws. This may build a nice pot and tie others to it with vulnerable hands to it.

Ex. five limpers and hero completes in the sb with K5:hearts: The flop comes with two hearts and hero donks.

Bad players typically don't donk in these situations. They don't understand equity, and even with five opponents and a strong draw they'll be content to check and call until they hit.

In general, I read a donk from a bad player as a made pair that wants to bet because he thinks you'll fold.


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I feel this is a little incomplete. Would anyone care to add to this?

[UncleSalty]

This thread is fantastic. Thank you.