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Old 12-07-2005, 09:38 PM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default LAG or Good Player?

Regarding a question bset asked in another thread, I am going to discuss profiling players and determining whether someone is just a LAG or a good player. Obviously LAGs come in many different varieties, and as Dr. Al's book The Psychology of Poker says, there isn't just the 4 simple classifications for players, but a grid. And like he said, the semi-lags who choose the right games can be winning players.

We've all seen the hyper-lags who raise almost every hand preflop and bet every flop and chase to the river with any draw and call with anything. They are rare though and usually don't last long unless they're rich. But other LAGs are different. Some will raise a lot preflop but not bet when it misses them, although they're prone to bet if they have any piece or any draw, and are always looking for ways to get other players to fold. Every scare card belongs to them, and they will bet when those cards come, but usually back off if raised and they have no redraws. But they will draw very loose, and to them a 7 high flush draw is the same as the nut flush draw even in a multiway pot. On their good days they can seem unstoppable.

Other LAGs, often called "tricky LAGs", are the types of players you really need to pay attention to and make good notes on. These players will raise with lots of marginal hands and try to steal lots of pots, and are often willing to stack with only a weak draw, especially if they have bet and been raised. But since they are thinking LAGs, they are adept at using their position and often will slowplay if not the player putting in the last raise, or take a free card when appropriate. But they actually tend to bet their good hands more often. And even though they are getting their stack in before the river with inadequate odds to hit their draws usually, all those stolen pots, especially the ones they have raised preflop, give them somewhat of a freeroll to suckout, like the Doyle way in no-limit.

And they also win in a lot of situations because when that scare card comes on the river but doesn't really help them, they are not afraid to put it all in on a bluff. So they steal even more pots. And because of the aggressive way they play, when they actually make a good hand on the flop, many players think they are betting lite again, and give them too much action. Which again adds to their earnings. They are the prime example of the adage that you have to give action to get action. Also, these kinds of players do not tend to be calling stations on the river, although they do have a good sense of when to snap off bluffs.

These types of players also tend to have a lot of table sense, that is, they are very conscious of the recent flow of the game and table dynamics. Sometimes when 2 or more of them are present on the table, the pot averages will be huge. But other times, with the very same players, they will look like the tightest players on the planet. Often this has to do with seating positions relative to other such players who will play back at them with less than the nuts. And they will fold hand after hand, when on a more aggressive table, they would be calling raises with those hands, because they are always looking to play big pots.

One of their primary tactics, especially when there are several deep stacks, is to put in the first raise, even in the blinds, with hands others would never raise with, because their hand will be so disguised. And if they get reraised by AA, well that is fine by them. Because again, they are looking to play big pots. They know that by a combination of hitting a good flop with those hands, stealing pots, and sucking out with weak draws, that they can often come out ahead over time. And they are especially good at taking off the very weakest players.

Determining how good a player one of these is, is difficult and requires lots of observation. And determining how to play against them is often even more difficult. Bad seat position regarding a couple players like these can doom your chances of a winning session, and often the best course is to decline seats until you get one you like relative to them. And you are going to have to have the fortitude to gamble with them and also stick your stack in with a less than stellar hand that nonetheless rates to beat theirs. This is especially true when you have reraised preflop with AA and have only about 1/2 your stack in. Unless and A comes on the flop, they are going to bet in front of you no matter what and also reraise you with any piece or any draw. My default move is simply to get allin when against tighter players I would lay down. But of course tighter players wouldn't call the size of raises relative to theirs or your stack sizes preflop like they do.

But you do have to realize that when they have bet and you raise them with a draw only or something like top and bottom 2 pair, they are rarely folding and will attempt to suck out at all costs. This can often lead to your getting beat by some ugly backdoor hands, even when your read that your non-nut hand was the best on the flop was correct. But you can take all this too far as well and play right into their hands if you give them too much action when they actually have a good hand. You just need to be right more often than not, especially on the bigger pots, to come out ahead long term.

So pay close attention to their hand selection and the types of hands they raise with and bet, and also to the situations where they do not bet or raise. And don't automatically peg all such players as idiots, when a few of them may actually be "good" LAGs. Realize that if you want to play successfully against them with deep stacks, that good hand reading and position, as well as knowledge of equities in situations, is the key to winning their money. And part of this is going to have to be making some pretty tough calls of their bluffs. All of which is higher variance and requires being more conservative with bankroll requirements for playing in such games with such players.
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  #2  
Old 12-07-2005, 10:31 PM
RoundTower RoundTower is offline
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Default Re: LAG or Good Player?

Great post.

I felt like you were describing me in almost every paragraph. I would be interested to see if this is like one of those psychological profiles that everyone feels was written specifically for them, or if this actually describes me.
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Old 12-07-2005, 10:52 PM
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Default Re: LAG or Good Player?

Great, great post Bluff.

My biggest leak against these players is undoubtably the river bluff and sorting out when I am ahead and when I am behind. I was reading through a couple of Rolf's old columns and one thing that really struck me was his arrogently-intonated suggesetion that the tough spots are somehow demystified by the "better" players whereas "weaker" players often make the wrong decision. Perhaps some of it has to do with the nature of Internet poker and the general lack of tells. Many of the "face" players make their living reading live action, and for the most part, this luxury just doesn't exist online. As you point out, a great deal of careful observation and notetaking can help you get feel for the percentage of the time a given player will make a play, but in the end it just seems that all you have is a percentage. I try to note the action in each pot as it builds to a climax in order to make sure that it is consistent throughout, but even this can be misleading because the maths are often blatently disregarded.

I feel like I am missing something...
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Old 12-08-2005, 12:05 AM
Unabridged Unabridged is offline
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Default Re: LAG or Good Player?

good post. i think the best way to beat them is to pick your spots and try to be raising them all in, not calling theirs. if they peg you as a tight, they will fold to your raises. but like most LAGs, after a while they get angry at folding to you
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Old 12-08-2005, 11:11 AM
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Default Re: LAG or Good Player?

Agreeing with everyone else, I think this post is great. I think that unabridged is right that the only way to beat a "smart LAG" is to either a) become a "smart" lag or (b) play tight and pick your spots. I just think that the "smart" LAG is always the most "feared" person. At first I couldnt tell if this was just a general strategy post or an Omaha post (becuase this can easily be applied to Hold'em with a few changes if that). Very good post. I am wondering if u play one of these strategies BluffThis?
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Old 12-08-2005, 01:35 PM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: LAG or Good Player?

You can't just play squeaky tight against them all the time or you are playing into their strategy of forcing you to make the nuts while they steal a million pots which gives them an effective freeroll to suckout on your good hands. You have to play back at them sometimes and also sometimes check the nuts to them on the end to let them know a check by you isn't always a greenlight to steal.

These are the types of players that you want to be betting very good draws into, because when that draw hits they will frequently raise you with a non-nut hand or when you are freerolling from that point on. And often when you do make a set and bet it on the flop and a non-threatening card comes on the turn on a drawing board, that is a good opportunity to checkraise allin or almost so if you can, because they will usually bet if checked to, especially headsup. You do need to know the frequency with which they will take free cards though so as not to let them draw too cheap very often.
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Old 12-08-2005, 02:03 PM
Phishy McFish Phishy McFish is offline
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Default Self Aware

I too felt it described me.....but I would bet I am more of a wannabe "smart LAG". I think those who feel this describes them need to realize that not all of the characteristics are flattering. I raise A LOT preflo...spewing sometimes...sometimes potting. My favorite opponent is an already by then frustrated player holding AAxx with both of us holding a decent stack. The pot will still be small relative to the stacks on the flop so I can tell how I want to take advantage should they wish to overplay a non improved hand after the flop.

Again, I still assume not many of you are on Paradise and are playing at Stars, UB and Party?
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Old 12-13-2005, 03:20 AM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: LAG or Good Player?

[ QUOTE ]
Great, great post Bluff.

My biggest leak against these players is undoubtably the river bluff and sorting out when I am ahead and when I am behind. I was reading through a couple of Rolf's old columns and one thing that really struck me was his arrogently-intonated suggesetion that the tough spots are somehow demystified by the "better" players whereas "weaker" players often make the wrong decision. Perhaps some of it has to do with the nature of Internet poker and the general lack of tells. Many of the "face" players make their living reading live action, and for the most part, this luxury just doesn't exist online. As you point out, a great deal of careful observation and notetaking can help you get feel for the percentage of the time a given player will make a play, but in the end it just seems that all you have is a percentage. I try to note the action in each pot as it builds to a climax in order to make sure that it is consistent throughout, but even this can be misleading because the maths are often blatently disregarded.

I feel like I am missing something...

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't reply to this post the other day because I wanted to think through my reply carefully so as not to give advice that might get lesser experienced players into lots of troubles with the kinds of players my post is about.

You are indeed correct that a lot of the problem comes on the river when there is still decent money to bet, and especially if you are out of position and can't as often get a checked down river when you would like it. If you have been able via the stack sizes to get allin before the river then that is usually preferable, but not always possible. However, even on a draw heavy board, you should often consider checkraising the turn out of position for this reason, that is to try to get allin.

On the river when trying to read whether they are bluffing, you have to consider that they are willing to bet hands that most other players would check, such as low flushes, non-nut straights, and even straights made with a card that also brings a flush. If the river is multiway, then you mostly go by your hand strength and math. But if headsup against one of these players you have to be able to play back the action in the hand and compare it to how you have in the past seen them play various hands such as middle set, nut flush draws with nothing else, and bigger draws.

When out of position with a set or a straight that might have been beat with a flush card on the river, you are simply going to have to call a certain percentage of the time or they will steal your balls off in every similar situation. And you should often make a bluff stopping bet (also in nl referred to as a blocking bet), although you need to know how they react to such bets, and you need to be seen making the same smaller bets with the nuts.

When headsup on the river and having position though, you need to realize that the "best LAGs" are not river calling stations, so you should not value bet as thin with non-nut hands as you would against the ones who call much more. And you have to be aware that if you reopen the action after having been checked to, some players might then put in a bluff checkraise. So all of this requires very good judgement and good notes as to their past play.

The key I believe though, is to employ a mixed strategy where a certain percentage of the time you make bluff stopping bets and also bet smaller with the nuts to balance this so that they can't figure you out as easily. And since they are so aggressive, a side benefit occasionally will be they will sometimes raise those smaller river bets when you have the nuts on a steal.

Finally, as I mentioned earlier, their whole strategy is based on trying to force you to make the nuts while they steal on every scare card that comes. So you have to occasionally reverse this with well timed bluffs of your own, assuming again, that they aren't known calling stations.

Bottom line is that they are hard to play against because of a combination of aggression and an inability to read their hands as well as you can with other players, and because all those successful steals give them an effective freeroll to suckout with inadequate odds. So you need to make yourself harder for them to read by occasional slowplaying, smaller bets with nut and non-nut hands, and your own bluffs. Just realize that it takes a bigger bankroll at any level to play more successfully and aggressively with these players.
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