Ten 8/16 hands...I'd like opinion on the lines...

Garland · #1 12-01-2005, 08:49 PM

For the better part of a year and a half, I've been a successful no-limit player. Before that, I was a successful small/mid-limit player. I just want to keep my limit game sharp. No-limit has made my limit game very much more aggressive, but I'm not sure if I've tipped the scales towards overaggressiveness.

Anyhow, the game is at Paradise Poker where I have some bonus money to clear, and the game is fairly tightish with some loose spots. However, the game plays very much tight aggressive. Expect bet and 3-bet with overpairs and top pairs alike. I, myself, am very tight aggressive and should be viewed as such by observant opponents. There is some bluffing going on, and the players are mostly above average. In short, I shouldn't be playing as long as I actually did, but I did it. Now I have to live with the results...

Opinions/Alternate lines would be lovely. Criticisms are also graciously received. Assume all villians are fairly tight aggressive unless otherwise stated.

All comments appreciated. Results to follow.

Garland

Hand #1

Paradise Poker 8/16 Hold'em (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP1 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
 SB bets, BB calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
 SB bets, BB folds, MP1 calls, Hero raises, SB raises, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

River: (10.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
 SB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.75 BB

Hand #2

Villian has shown some bluff tendancies in the past. He is also on the loose side.

Paradise Poker 8/16 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, SB calls, UTG folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, SB raises, MP2 folds, Hero 3-bets, SB caps, Hero calls.

River: (12.75 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.75 BB

Hand #3

Nothing special about villian except he's short...

Paradise Poker 8/16 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 5 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, UTG calls.

Flop: (5 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls.

River: (5.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players) Hero bets, UTG raises (last $10) , Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

Hand #4

Paradise Poker 8/16 Hold'em (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, Hero caps, SB calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero calls.

River: (13.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

Hand #5

Paradise Poker 8/16 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 5 folds, SB calls, BB 3-bets, Hero calls, SB calls.

Flop: (9 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero calls, SB folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB

Hand #6

Paradise Poker 8/16 Hold'em (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. MP2 posts a blind of $8.
UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 (poster) raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, UTG calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
_^MountaiN^ checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, UTG folds, MP2 calls.

River: (8.75 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets, MP2 raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.75 BB

Hand #7

Paradise Poker 8/16 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
5 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

River: (5.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB folds.

Final Pot: 8.25 BB

Hand #8

Paradise Poker 8/16 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, 4 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

River: (7.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.25 BB

Hand #9

Paradise Poker 8/16 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 3 folds, SB completes, Hero raises, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, SB calls.

Flop: (9 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, SB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, SB folds.

River: (8 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB

Hand #10

Villain is very loose aggressive:

Paradise Poker 8/16 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
4 folds, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, CO raises, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

River: (5.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

Final Pot: 7.50 BB

There you go. Enjoy...

WillMagic · #2 12-01-2005, 10:43 PM

Dude, you gotta split these up.

Will

hobbsmann · #3 12-01-2005, 11:35 PM

ugh, too many hands to go through right now.

I stopped at hand 6 and it seems to me you have a spewing problem. Hand 4 is pure spewage and the river raise in hand 5 sucks. Hands 1 and 3 look standard. Hand 2 I don't think I 3-bet the turn, but this is close IMO. Hand 6 looks standard.

Garland · #4 12-04-2005, 04:36 PM

Next time I post in batches of 5...10 is too much

Hand #1, opponent showed 77 for a flopped set. I guess no one folds to the turn 3-bet.

Hand #2, opponent shows JTs for a turned straight. I don't think a turn 3-bet is necessarily incorrect with me turning top two and my opponent having a high range range of hands.

Hand #3, opponent shows KQo for flopped top pair. I guess this is standard play against a sole opponent and no one gets away...

Hand #4, spewage as someone mentioned. I still thought an A or K would make my hand a winner by the river and planned to raise the river if either hit. Once my cap occurs, I should just call flop and turn bets and fold the river.

Hand #5, "too much calling is bad, means you're unsure of your hand". The river raise is for value as I believe my opponent will call with less hands KK, QQ, JJ. I don't have to win all the value raises to make it correct. I also planned to fold to a 3-bet.

Hand #6. Standard. My opponent shows K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]for a river bluff.

Hand #7. I think I like my river raise...

Hand #8. I think I might have missed a river raise. My opponent showed KJs for a worse kicker.

Hand #9. Standard. My opponent showed K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for the river bluff

Hand #10. I believed my 8s and 7s were good along with my straight draw (14 outs), so I had odds to draw. I would lead the river if either of those cards appeared as well. Opponent called and showed 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

Thanks,

Garland

#5 12-04-2005, 06:14 PM

You seem to like raising the river a little too much. Personally, many of your hands I would prefer raising the turn. Many opponents lead the flop and turn, but check/call the river. This will mess up your river raising pattern.

W. Deranged · #6 12-04-2005, 08:47 PM

Please never more than 2 hands per post!

Biggest issues I have:

#4: You WAY overplayed this. I don't really like the flop raise, and I HATE the turn raise. Do you realize that you could have seen a showdown for like half of what you put in?

#5: See this thread for discussion of the "wait to the river with top pair of As" line.

#7: I don't really like the flop call without very specific reasons to do so. If villain is taking a shot because he thinks you missed the flop, okay. You'll have plenty of shots to take his money when you have a real hand or at least two overcards.

Everything else is reasonably good. We might be able to find a river fold in hand #9 against the right player, but against most I'm calling down.

If you want more complete analysis post individual hands.

Garland · #7 12-04-2005, 09:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Biggest issues I have:

[/ QUOTE ]
Criticism always good...
[ QUOTE ]

#4: You WAY overplayed this. I don't really like the flop raise, and I HATE the turn raise. Do you realize that you could have seen a showdown for like half of what you put in?

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. It was an image play, however it didn't work.

[ QUOTE ]
#5: See this thread for discussion of the "wait to the river with top pair of As" line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Differences between the hand in that thread and my hand:

(1) BB 3-bet narrowing his range of hands significantly.
(2) This game is very aggressive, where most Party $3/$6 games are fairly passive. You will see very little check and call lines with my opponents. I will collect big $$ from supposed KK, QQ and JJ in the long run by not letting them off the hook by taking raise flop, bet turn line...they mostly fold that, and with those same hands by the time they bet the river and I raise, they have already become pot-stuck. It was a value raise that only has to be called by an inferior hand a small % of the time to be profitable.

[ QUOTE ]
#7: I don't really like the flop call without very specific reasons to do so. If villain is taking a shot because he thinks you missed the flop, okay. You'll have plenty of shots to take his money when you have a real hand or at least two overcards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed that the flop call was kind of loose. I felt as if I hit my A, I would definitely be good and get a good return to my investment. However, don't forget several things:

(1) There are backdoor straight draws in addition to my over.
(2) Just because he bet the flop doesn't necessarily mean he'll bet the turn, so some of the time I'll get 2 cards for the price of one small bet.

However, in general, I should fold; you are right.

[ QUOTE ]
Everything else is reasonably good. We might be able to find a river fold in hand #9 against the right player, but against most I'm calling down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems his line is weird if he had a J (which was the only hand I was really afraid of) as he had one player to act who could conceivably have a draw. The pot was too big to lay down too.

[ QUOTE ]
Please never more than 2 hands per post!

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry! I'll try limit them next time. I felt most of them were fairly trivial (but wanted to make sure) and only some of them warranted real discussion.

Thanks for your post, W. Deranged.

Garland

#8 12-04-2005, 09:43 PM

hand #4... you need to be ready to release if unimproved on turn with that AK... you tested the waters and defended your hand, and he came over you for 3... no way he will drop or you have the best hand when he comes out firing on turn again... i don't care if he's the biggest donk on the planet

W. Deranged · #9 12-04-2005, 09:45 PM

As for hand #5, you say your value raise only needs to be called by a worse hand a small % of the time to be profitable. This isn't the case; if it's a value raise, you need to be ahead at least 55% of the time to merit raising.

I agree there are many differences between this hand and the one I linked. Ultimately, though, those differences probably point to why it'd be better to simply call this down rather than raising at any point.

#10 12-04-2005, 10:02 PM

here's my take besides my opinion of hand four...
hand 1:
not much you could do here... i like waiting until the turn given there was no shot at narrowing the field on flop...
once he made it 3 on turn, only goal is to get as cheap of a showdown as possible...

hand 2...
played it well... nothing you could do here if you're beat

hand 5... i like pushing pre-flop here to get a sense of where i'm at as well as narrowing the field with those two diamonds outand then using my position for the rest of the hand...

i don't see much sense in the river raise, odds are you're already beaten here (unless he's has a stubborn pair of kings or queens, and thought you were chasing which isn't completely unlikely given all the flat calls.)

hand 6... wouldn't do anything different
hand 7... extracted full value, couldn't have been as patient myself
hand 8... two pair alarm goes off when he comes out firing on river... but would've played the same
hand 9... wouldn't change
hand 10... i would've pushed the river just as you did... putting him on A-6 or the likes given his aggressiveness...
i don't think he'd push trip nines that hard on that safe of a flop 3 handed making a check likely from him on river... i'd much rather get the one bet then none in this case

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode