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  #11  
Old 10-30-2005, 08:33 PM
Darryl_P Darryl_P is offline
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Default Re: question for those who don\'t support stem cell research:

I think the crux of it is that killing people is only ok in self-defense. Military action (in theory anyway) is killing the enemy before he kills us, ie. in self-defense, while abortions (in most cases) are a more frivolous form of killing.
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  #12  
Old 10-30-2005, 10:23 PM
Zygote Zygote is offline
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Default Re: question for those who don\'t support stem cell research:

i'm not talking about killing someone in self-defense or abortion. I'm talking about a soldier or civilian being asked to sacrifice their life for a greater good by the state.
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  #13  
Old 10-30-2005, 11:31 PM
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Default Re: question for those who don\'t support stem cell research:

The response here would be that the soldier has the choice on whether or not to sacrifice his life. But, your response could be: not in the case of a draft. But, then, the person still has the choice to leave the country, and denounce his citizenship. Then, you would switch angles, and say: well, what about the civilians, the innocent bystanders, that are killed in the course of war?

Also, I'm not sure if this will be an issue for much longer... but we'll see. The last I heard, they had a way of getting stem-cells without killing the embryo. Hopefully that works.... we need stem-cell research.
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  #14  
Old 10-31-2005, 12:49 AM
Zygote Zygote is offline
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Default Re: question for those who don\'t support stem cell research:

one of many examples:

Lets say an american journalist is kidnapped in iraq by a group notorious for beheading their prisoners. The group sends a letter to US officials detailing their plans to behead the prisoner unless america pulls out of Iraq and publically announces their pullout within one hour. other than the letter which reveals nothing but the plans and the groups identity, US officials have no intelligence that would indicate any hope of a rescue mission. The journalist has no way revealing his will to or not to sacrifice his life for a greater good and america is left to decide. What do you think their choice will be?
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  #15  
Old 10-31-2005, 01:17 AM
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Default Re: question for those who don\'t support stem cell research:

Its not America's choice whether or not to let the captive journalist die, since America doesn't negotiate with terrorists regardless.

You aren't getting any response because you aren't making any sense. It's like if you asked if its illogical to be a vegetarian but support the death penalty. The two really have nothing to do with each other and encompass totally different debates.
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  #16  
Old 10-31-2005, 01:35 AM
Zygote Zygote is offline
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Default Re: question for those who don\'t support stem cell research:

[ QUOTE ]
Its not America's choice whether or not to let the captive journalist die, since America doesn't negotiate with terrorists regardless.



[/ QUOTE ]

america made the policy to not negotiate? maybe you should ask yourself why they did this.
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  #17  
Old 10-31-2005, 01:44 AM
[censored] [censored] is offline
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Default Re: question for those who don\'t support stem cell research:

The thing is I don't see it as the same thing at all. I'm sure why you think someone who sees things differently saying im hypocritical would matter at all to me or anyone like me. I see this approach often and my conclusion is always the same. so what?

Here's how it would go

You "you are against abortion and for war?"
me "pretty much yes"
you "that's hypocritical, you're being a hypocrit"
me "umm ok"
you "well don't you feel the need to explain yourself and try and persuad me or change your position?"
me "no"
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  #18  
Old 10-31-2005, 01:56 AM
Zygote Zygote is offline
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Default Re: question for those who don\'t support stem cell research:

when did i say anything about abortion?

also,

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure why you think someone who sees things differently saying im hypocritical would matter at all to me or anyone like me. I see this approach often and my conclusion is always the same. so what?


[/ QUOTE ]

no wonder you dont mind holding nonsense postions. i can barely make any sense out of what you're saying here.

And i know you don't care, but your argument for why its okay to be a hypocrit (minus the specific examples) is senseless. at least your consistent.
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  #19  
Old 10-31-2005, 02:12 AM
[censored] [censored] is offline
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Default Re: question for those who don\'t support stem cell research:

[ QUOTE ]
when did i say anything about abortion?

also,

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure why you think someone who sees things differently saying im hypocritical would matter at all to me or anyone like me. I see this approach often and my conclusion is always the same. so what?


[/ QUOTE ]

no wonder you dont mind holding nonsense postions. i can barely make any sense out of what you're saying here.

And i know you don't care, but your argument for why its okay to be a hypocrit (minus the specific examples) is senseless. at least your consistent.

[/ QUOTE ]


Why is it senseless to be hypocritical? Almost no one takes any political position to the absolute extreme. Most people make value judgements which leaves them open to this completely meaningless hypocrit arguement.

Lets say for example im anti stem cell research and pro soldiers killing people and getting killed. And let's say for arguements sake a great deal of many people agree with me. Now you come along and say "hey you shouldn't have those positions because in some extreme view they are in conflict". Why should we care? So what if they are in conflict, where is it written that one can't make certain value judgements even if there maybe some conflict. Its a stupid arguement to make. which is why in that case my reponse to you would be "so what"

Perhaps me being willing to admit my hypocrisy instead of trying to hide it with silly excuses is what confusses you.

Ill give you an example. Im pro life and pro death expanded death penalty. Are they in conflict? probably. do I care, not at all.
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  #20  
Old 10-31-2005, 03:05 AM
Darryl_P Darryl_P is offline
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Default Re: question for those who don\'t support stem cell research:

If there's a draft, then the assumption is that the country is in serious danger. Another assumption is that the citizenry feels a strong identity with the nation, as if it were an extended family. So when your family is in danger, and you're the strong, young male, you go out and fight. If you don't feel that's your duty, then I wouldn't blame the family for distancing itself from you, not supporting you, etc. These assumptions are all present in the conservative viewpoint and have nothing to do with the stem cell case. To ask someone to risk his life there have to be pressing circumstances like the above. Scientific research is not as pressing as imminent danger from foreign threats.

And if you say the soldier has a 100% of dying and no benefit would come of it, then I think even the most hardline conservatives would agree that's pointless. And the same is true even if there is a benefit. Those who do that are called heroes and that's because they usually exercise volition in doing their heroism. Or can you cite any examples in which the state forced someone to die (with 100% probability, known in advance) for the greater good?
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