How does this QQ line sound?

SmileyEH · #1 10-28-2005, 04:53 PM

5/10 full. 2 limpers, I raise QQ in the SB. TAG in the BB 3bets, limpers fold I call. Good right?

Flop is KT9 two tone. I checkraise planning to call a 3bet and fold turn UI, otherwise lead and fold to a raise unimproved. Is this standard?

I'm just so used to capping QQ and hitting the bet button repeatedly, but I don't think that was right in this hand.

-SmileyEH

hobbsmann · #2 10-28-2005, 05:00 PM

The only hand that you are currently ahead of and want villian to fold incorrectly would be AQ which has 7 outs against you. Given that you hold two Qs I don't think this makes up a sizable enough portion of this guy's range to make c/r'ing the flop the best play. Also, if you do c/r and get 3-bet you can't fold the turn as you will have odds with your gutshot+set draw.

Nick C · #3 10-28-2005, 05:09 PM

I would check-call the flop and turn.

I don't like the board very much versus a preflop 3-bet, but at least I have some potential outs. (Plus, I am beating JJ and AQ and a hand like 77 that Villain 3-bet in hopes of getting heads-up.)

W. Deranged · #4 10-28-2005, 05:18 PM

I just typed out a long reply for why I think this should be:

Check-call, check-call, check-fold (unimproved).

Then something unfortunate happened and I lost my explanation: [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Anyway, that's my preferred line. No reason to get aggressive here. We're just costing ourselves bets against better hands, encouraging JJ to fold, and so on. Juicing the pot early makes particularly little sense considering we have so many outs and may have to pay off turn bets/raises because of our chance to improve.

River is tough. I think check-fold is good because villain is going to bet a lot on the flop and turn but likely only bet very good hands (AK and better) on the river, since you've represented a hand that you probably want to showdown. Sometimes JJ will bet and we'll get bluffed out, but I don't think this'll happen often enough to make betting better. The vast majority of the time we're called when we bet, it's by a better hand. This is sort of like the hand where Shant had QQ against MaxPower. The river played similarly there.

The best way to think of this is as a drawing hand where we're drawing to the combination of us hitting a Q or J + the chance that we both have the best hand and villain will let us showdown the river for free. The combination of those makes this hand easily worth playing on.

It is important to realize, though, that we're behind a significant majority of the time in this hand and so should really not be putting that much money into this pot.

hobbsmann · #5 10-28-2005, 05:30 PM

Willy, do you value bet if villian checks the turn?

SmileyEH · #6 10-28-2005, 05:30 PM

My reasoning for the flop was that I make sure I never get bluffed out for 1.5SB's. I doubt JJ ever folds here...I dunno maybe. passive is still best?

-SmileyEH

jason_t · #7 10-28-2005, 05:36 PM

Unless you improve, check/call, check/call, check/fold. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Nick C · #8 10-28-2005, 05:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My reasoning for the flop was that I make sure I never get bluffed out for 1.5SB's. I doubt JJ ever folds here...I dunno maybe. passive is still best?

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

Part of my thinking is that if Villain has, say, TT and 3-bets your flop checkraise, he's not bluffing. But you do have 6 outs, and you don't want to fold those outs on the turn, in this medium-sized pot.

I agree that he's unlikely to drop JJ to a checkraise (and you wouldn't mind if he did fold), but I think you're usually behind on that flop. So I don't really see the checkraise being for value. Driving out AQ prior to the river, if you could, would be great, but I have doubts about Villain letting that hand go before all the cards are out.

chief444 · #9 10-28-2005, 05:46 PM

Smiley,

I don't get the flop play. That's a pretty bad flop for you and you're likely behind. But you do have some outs. I'd rather spend the 1.5 BB's seeing the river and check/folding there since JJ or worse is pretty unlikely to bet...as others have indicated.

Chief

baronzeus · #10 10-28-2005, 05:48 PM

i dont see how you can fold the turn UI getting 8:1 on the turn. in fact, you cant.

also, why didnt you cap preflop. to check raise a "good" flop?

also i think JJ consists of a portion of his range and i think he bets all 3 streets with this hand (barring an A usually) so i dont like folding the river unless an A hits.