To Christians (not an attack, but an honest query)

[Cooker]

As one who has left the Christian faith, I am curious to hear some opinions on some of the key issues that caused me to abandon it. Let me state that I have never seen or felt anything that I believe cannot be explained by the laws of physics.

I find the demand of faith without proof unreasonable and unjust. It is unreasonable in the sense that if God is all powerful he could easily supply proof to each person, so to deny us tangible proof of his existence is silly. Secondly, anyone that experiences "miracles" first hand or other supernatural phenomena are given the proof which makes it easier to believe. Therefore, to judge us on faith when some have a decided advantage is unjust.

I know that not all branches of Christianity value faith quite so highly, but once these sores and annoyances festered, I couldn't see myself staying Christian. I also feel that the God character in the bible is too unsophisticated to be believable. Many of his actions are juvenile while he simply says, "you don't understand me because I am better than you (paraphrase)" when his obviously capricious behavior is questioned which is even more juvenile and capricious.

[Spaded]

The book of Job is a pretty good example of this, especially when comically expressed in an episode of south park [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

How could a just god tear this pious man's life to pieces and kill his innocent family members, all because of a bet god made with satan?

[PairTheBoard]

I'm betting that while you have abandoned the old theologies because you find them untenable, you have retained something in your heart from the faith. You remain a person concerned about compassion. You continue to bear fruits of the faith in your life. To my way of thinking, theologies are dead things. They come and go. What's in your heart is alive and real. If it's a spirit of compassion, kindness, empathy, tolerance, fairness, "love", then that's where god is. In your Heart. You reveal god to us in your life whether you choose to use the word "god" or not. Why should you settle for some old theologian's archaic description of god when you already know him for who he really is within your heart. If you think Jesus knew the same thing then you're as much a Christian as anybody.

PairTheBoard

[David Sklansky]

"Why should you settle for some old theologian's archaic description of god when you already know him for who he really is within your heart. If you think Jesus knew the same thing then you're as much a Christian as anybody."


PairTheBoard

And if he already knew him for who he really is within his heart and he thinks Jesus DID NOT know the same thing then what is he?

[usmhot]

To a certain extent I'm with you on this Cooker.
I grew up a fully practicing Irish Catholic. Even became involved in youth oriented Christian groups in my teens. Was, in fact, very devout.
Then a personal tragedy in my twenties kind of blew that all away.
Also, I did a science degree. And have always maintained a keen interest in physics, in particular.
I am now at the same point as you seem to be. I find the explanations offered by science to be far more cogent and consistent than any the various religions have offered. And, I find there is little room left for faith.

However, there are a couple of things I would say in answer to your questions.
My understanding was always that having faith without proof was far more glorifying to God than having faith only with proof. If God needed to provide us with proof then we would be mere automatons - no more interesting than toys. So, the whole freewill thing was God's gamble, so to speak, for a bigger pay-off.

Also, even at my most devout, I never believed the stories in the Bible (particularly the Old Testament) to be anything more than mere contemporary parables - designed to teach some points to the people at the time. So, a story in which God is a vengeful being was probably very effective at a time when man's sophistication included routine stonings.

Only in the New Testament do we begin to see that the message is universally one of love and forgiveness. But, unfortunately, the organised religions have twisted it to their own ends and corrupted it. (Even though I seriously doubt it will happen) when the 'judgment' comes I comfort myself with the thought that the first to be punished will be the many many priests, bishops and popes who have used God's word to manipulate ordinary people for their own greed.

[PairTheBoard]

[ QUOTE ]
"Why should you settle for some old theologian's archaic description of god when you already know him for who he really is within your heart. If you think Jesus knew the same thing then you're as much a Christian as anybody."


PairTheBoard

And if he already knew him for who he really is within his heart and he thinks Jesus DID NOT know the same thing then what is he?

[/ QUOTE ]

Someone worth knowing?

PairTheBoard

[spaminator101]

[ QUOTE ]
Therefore, to judge us on faith when some have a decided advantage is unjust.



[/ QUOTE ]

its not unjust as technically those who go to hell get what they deserve based on their ungodliness
it is those who are elected by god who are just treated specially in a sense.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

I find the demand of faith without proof unreasonable and unjust. It is unreasonable in the sense that if God is all powerful he could easily supply proof to each person, so to deny us tangible proof of his existence is silly.


[/ QUOTE ]

Romans 1:
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

[ QUOTE ]

Many of his actions are juvenile while he simply says, "you don't understand me because I am better than you (paraphrase)"


[/ QUOTE ]

It's a pretty bad paraphrase. But if He is the Absolute Being, the Creator of the universe, omnipotent, omniscient and perfect, why wouldn't He say:

"My thoughts are not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways"?

[ QUOTE ]

obviously capricious behavior


[/ QUOTE ]

The behavior of an adult will often seem unreasonable to a child.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

How could a just god tear this pious man's life to pieces and kill his innocent family members, all because of a bet god made with satan?


[/ QUOTE ]

Job 38:

1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said,
2"Who is this that darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?

Job 40:
1Then the LORD said to Job,
2"Will the faultfinder contend with the Almighty?
Let him who reproves God answer it."

3Then Job answered the LORD and said,
4"Behold, I am insignificant; what can I reply to You?
I lay my hand on my mouth.
5"Once I have spoken, and I will not answer;
Even twice, and I will add nothing more."

Job:42:

"Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand,
Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know."
4'Hear, now, and I will speak;
I will ask You, and You instruct me.'
5"I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear;
But now my eye sees You;
6Therefore I retract,
And I repent in dust and ashes."

[txag007]

Let me take it point by point:

COOKER-
"I find the demand of faith without proof unreasonable and unjust. It is unreasonable in the sense that if God is all powerful he could easily supply proof to each person, so to deny us tangible proof of his existence is silly."

There is plenty of reasonable proof out there if you just know where to look, and more of it is being uncovered all the time. In fact, in 1 Thessalonians 5 we are told to "test everything". We are not instructed to believe on "blind faith" alone.

Great sources if you are interested are THE CASE FOR CHRIST by Lee Strobel, MERE CHRISTIANITY by C.S. Lewis, or the following websites: www.godandscience.org , and www.rationalchristianity.net .

COOKER-
"Secondly, anyone that experiences "miracles" first hand or other supernatural phenomena are given the proof which makes it easier to believe. Therefore, to judge us on faith when some have a decided advantage is unjust."

The miracles in the Bible were performed as catalysts for faith, but they were performed before the complete Bible was put together. Biblical miracles all occurred in front of an audience, and we have records of those miracles upon which we base our faith.

COOKER-
"I also feel that the God character in the bible is too unsophisticated to be believable."

It's funny you say that because many opponents to Christianity say the opposite; that God is too contradictory. (Is He a God of war or a God of peace?, etc.)

I hope this helps.