Who played this worse?

[budman]

20-40 Hold'em at Foxwoods Friday Night. Game has been loose pre-flop. Stable pro just sat down and is now the button (posted after the button).

I am large blind with Ah9c. Five limpers to the button, who raises. Small blind folds everyone else calls. Seven of us to the flop (7.5 big bets).

Flop comes Ad - 10h - 9s. I bet out with top and bottom pair, someone downstream raises, button three bets, I cap. Four of us to the turn (16.5 big bets).

Turn is 7h. Board now reads Ad, 10h, 9s, 7h. I bet out, get one fold, one call and button raises. I three-bet, and both call (25.5 big bets).

River is Kh. I check, middle players checks, button bets. I call, middle player overcalls (28.5 big bets).

Comments?

[Jeffage]

Well, I think you played the flop very badly (preflop is debateable, but I think a call is ok b/c the pot is big, provided you play it well postflop...which you didn't imo). The flop is a clear checkraise. You know the bet will come from LP and there are a bevy of straight draws on the board (both open and gutter). Also, b/c the pot is already big, people are now correct to call with any pair they flopped, any straight draw, any gutshot. What you want to do is eliminate players or make them pay and a flop checkraise is your best shot at doing so. I'm sure you probably got beat by AK here...turn and river aren't very interesting. You're going to pay off if you're beat. I think betting the flop demonstrates a clear playing error.

Jeff

[budman]

I agree with you. I had thought the button was trying to dominate the hand and was betting with a questionable hand. I thought he would raise and I could three-bet which would drive out the players in between. It actually ended up being three and four betted, and everyone was committed by then.

He actually was open ended, and caught broadway on the river.

Do you think his play of an open ended straight was good? I was suprised that he pushed it so hard. He took down a monster pot here, but he was on a draw till the end.

[Jeffage]

If he had QJ, yes he overplayed it. The flop is fine, but raising the turn is dumb because there is no chance he's winning the pot right there and doesn't need a free showdown; he must hit to win. Plus, there is a substantial chance of being reraised.

Jeff

[mike l.]

you must fold A9o preflop even with all those people in. not the answer youre looking for i know, but it's true. it's a classic blind trap hand against a solid preflop raiser.

on the flop the best play is to check and hope the button bets so you can checkraise and try and clear out some gutshots behind you.

[elysium]

hi bud

fold pre-flop. when the button raises he is doing so knowing that his raise will be called. it looks like he has a made that that beats you at the point of the turn. the 3-bet can sometimes be o.k., but not here.

it looks like you wound up in 3rd place on this one. i think the MP got there.

[budman]

Actually I think I came in 2nd. The button hit his open ender on the river. I know I misplayed on the flop by causin the pot to be so large that everyone got odds to fish.

I was suprised that this pro would bet into a board on the river that could have given someone a flush.

After the showdown I was blown away that he pushed a draw as hard as he did. He was in third place at best until the river, but bet like he had a set all the way through.

Maybe he was getting proper odds with all those players in the pot, but he was not drawing to the nuts on the turn, did not make the nuts on the river.

It seems to me that poker pros who rely entirely on their poker earnings should be more conservative. Didn't he throw in too many bets and raises?

[sweetjazz]

A couple of comments from a lower limit player. First, it's cool to know that 20/40 at Foxwoods is that good. I've played up to 5/10 and seen horrible play, and I'd heard 10/20 was equally bad (becuase the 5/10 players were all complaining how people would chase you down and make two little pair on the river). Too bad I'm moving soon. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Second, obviously button played badly here. His preflop raise is bad unless his QJ was suited, and his turn raise was bad unless he had Qh Jh. Even then it's still bad, but not horribly so.

Third, I agree that this is a hand where you want to check-raise the button, but let's make sure we are clear are on something. I'd rather people with weak draws put in 4 SB on the flop than fold the pot for 2 SB. The reason betting out is bad is if it just gets called in all places. In fact, if I had a tell that button was excited when the ace hit the flop, I think betting out with the intention of 3-betting is the best play. Your hand is indeed vulnerable, but your equity on this flop is quite good.

I also don't like the turn 3-bet. In hindsight, we see that the button was overplaying his hand, but he's representing a hand that can beat yours. About the only hand I can reasonably see him having there that you beat is Ah Kh. Yes you are getting an overlay from the third player who you are probably beating and you have to account for the possibility that even seemingly good players sometimes overplay hands, but this decision is not close enough where those factors come into play.

River is fine. I don't like the preflop call.

[DcifrThs]

not checkraising the flop can cost a pot.

losing a few bets here and there w/ a draw or AK is not that bad b/c if he does have a draw its a good one and if you fold the turn to his raise its catastrophic.

not c'ring the flop is really just bad though imo.

-Barron

[roy_miami]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I think you played the flop very badly (preflop is debateable, but I think a call is ok b/c the pot is big, provided you play it well postflop...which you didn't imo). The flop is a clear checkraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

If button is smart, the only thing he will bet here is an Ace. If he has an Ace, he will likely raise hero's flop bet allowing hero to get 3 or 4 bets from all callers while ensuring it doesn't get checked through. Also, the guys in between will know its likely getting raised behind them so the bet out will still put some pressure on the middle guys. IMO the bet-3bet line is not only not horrible, but is the proper play on this flop.