Interesting AQT4ds hand

joewatch · #1 12-03-2005, 10:09 PM

I had no idea my drawing hand was the favorite on the turn ...

Villain is known to me as a solid tight-aggr. player.

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha High, $2 BB (8 handed) converter

BB ($173.65)
UTG ($608.85)
UTG+1 ($54.50)
Hero ($235)
MP2 ($147)
CO ($191.65)
Button ($83.15)
SB ($309.25)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls $2, 1 fold, Hero calls $2, MP2 calls $2, CO calls $2, Button calls $2, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($14) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $10, MP2 folds, CO calls $10, Button folds, SB calls $10, BB calls $10, UTG calls $10.

Turn: ($64) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets $30, BB folds, UTG folds, Hero raises to $151, CO folds, SB calls $121.

River: ($366) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $86, Hero calls $72 (All-In).

Final Pot: $524

Results in white below: 

Villain showed [Jd 6s 8s 9c] and lost with a straight, Seven to Jack

Outcome: Hero wins $510. SB wins $14.

pokenum -o jd 9c 8s 6s - ac qc th 4h -- 7c ah tc 8h
Omaha Hi: 40 enumerated boards containing Tc 7c Ah 8h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
8s 6s 9c Jd 19 47.50 21 52.50 0 0.00 0.475
Ac Qc Th 4h 21 52.50 19 47.50 0 0.00 0.525

22 clean outs

TheRempel · #2 12-03-2005, 11:08 PM

This is pretty standard. Why is it supposed to be interesting?

BluffTHIS! · #3 12-04-2005, 12:27 AM

Joe, for someone who just advised another poster to read the section on drawing hands in C/R, you should be better able to estimate your equity with such a hand. Multiway I'm jamming this pot on the turn even if I know one of them has a straight.

joewatch · #4 12-04-2005, 02:18 AM

Sorry, although I know that my play is standard, the surprise was that the draw hand was the favorite over the made hand on the turn. That rarely happens I think.

Anyway, I won't post any more of my "interesting" hands since all I get is criticism. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

BluffTHIS! · #5 12-04-2005, 04:05 AM

Joe, don't stop posting hands. But you need to take some of this criticism to heart and it will improve your game. There is a difference between being a mediocre winner and a big winner and the old adage the enemy of the best is the good is very applicable in this. You can't always have an opponent pinned to the wall with a set and the nut flush draw, and if you are not playing excellent hands for 10-20% of your stack and aggressively pushing big equity draw situations then it will be hard to ever be a big winner. And posting hands here is how you will learn to think differently about some of these things.

If part of the problem is that you are trying to hard to reduce your variance in this high variance form of poker because your bankroll can't stand too much, then it would be better to drop down a notch and play more aggressively and be able to enter more profitable situations.

And the rest of us aren't always right either, so your input is very welcome too. Many situations in plo, especially player dependent ones, appear "standard", but are really anything but. That is why it is critical to have an excellent grasp of hand vs. hand equities. So keep posting hands.

joewatch · #6 12-04-2005, 05:26 AM

Bluff,

I appreciate very much what you are saying.

Some thoughts, which I would welcome comments on -

Everyone says that PLO is a high-variance game. Yet, there are many things you can do to control your variance, such as folding marginal hands preflop, calling instead of raising when you have a big draw, etc. I am certain that because of my style of play, my variance is much less than the average player that posts here. Nevertheless, I am a consistent winner at PLO $200, and winning the same bb rate as I did playing PLO $100. I play about 20 hours/week and make about 50 bb/hr playing 4-6 tables. I'm sure many of you out there make more, but I can say I am happy with my results. And I enjoy playing the game and being involved with the discussion here. Of course, I want to get better, and am eager to learn. Just this week, I believe my game has been significantly improved by the advice in Rolf Slotboom's latest article. Surprisingly, the net effect of his advice has been to decrease my variance even more, and improving my net profits!

One of the frequent comments that always gives me a chuckle is when somebody says "if you don't like variance, you shouldn't be playing PLO", when they really mean "if you don't like playing xxxx hand my way, then you suck at PLO."

For a recreational player like myself, as long as you enjoy playing, and you aren't losing, there's no reason to quit.

How often do you turn a 22 out draw playing Texas Holdem??? That's why I love Omaha. I'm sorry if somebody like Rempel doesn't feel the same. Just ignore my posts if you think they suck. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

TheRempel · #7 12-04-2005, 06:08 AM

Look Joe, don't know what your problem is. Yet again you posted a hand for no other reason than "LOOK AT ME!!! AIN'T I SPECIAL!!!". I asked what was supposed to be interesting about it because I thought you might have some commentary on your play. I don't want you to stop posting hands. I would prefer if you posted some that had some content rather than just random hands where you flop 20+ out draws.

As for the variance line, I guarantee that your variance is higher in PLO than NLHE, even with a small ball style of play. I have made that comment to players who've whined about 'bad beats' in the past or to people who put themselves in -EV spots with weak plays (calling with large multi-out but non-nut draws, for example)..

Believe me, I know the sting of high variance, small edge play. I had two -15BI sessions in three days a few weeks ago.

joewatch · #8 12-04-2005, 05:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I had two -15BI sessions in three days a few weeks ago.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ouch! [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

dibbs · #9 12-05-2005, 02:52 AM

I throttle this piece hard.

Wouldn't be surprised if I'm off, however.

BluffTHIS! · #10 12-05-2005, 06:48 AM

Joe,

You know from my posts here that I too advocate playing fewer hands and playing tightly. More so than many other players here. And I too actually play in certain ways to reduce my variance. Rolf has alluded to this in a couple of his articles and said that he is accused of playing too weak tight when he is trying to lose less on the pots he loses by playing certain situations softer.

But the key point in the hand in question in this thread, is that you have a monster equity advantage againt multiple players even though you are behind on the turn. This simply means that you should get every dollar in the pot then while you can and before one of your outs comes on the river which will often kill your subsequent action. This is a +EV situation and you want to play it as many times as you can for as much as you can, and not doing so is an error.

Since I read the nl forums, I have over time read lots of Ray Zee's posts and in fact read them regarding limit even though I don't play that anymore. He talked about this type of thing in one post and said that the reason that it is such a big error to either pass up or not get as much money in a pot in these types of situations, even when your edge might only be as "little" as 1%, is that you get to do it over and over, and that the earn from such situations might be all that keeps your bankroll above water during a bad run. And an important side advantage in plo of playing extremely good draws hard is that it often allows you to get paid off more times when you have a set which adds further to your earn.

I quoted the adage in a post above that the enemy of the best is the good. Don't fail to be better than good.