WA/WB with QQ?

ludo72 · #1 08-21-2005, 05:55 AM

Party Poker (6 max, 5 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises to $2, Villain calls $2, 3 folds

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $4, Villain raises to $8, Hero calls $4

Turn: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Villain bets $12, Hero calls $12

River: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Villain bets $19.35 and is all-in, Hero calls $19.35

Final Pot: $81.45

Villain had been playing very aggressive but I haven't seen what kind of hands he has been playing. I figured this is a typical WA/WB-situation so I thought that calling down was the correct play. I know some people like to bet somewhere in the hand for information, but I don't see how I can do that without getting commited. How do people in general feel about betting/raising for information? Any links to previous threads concerning this topic would be highly appreciated.

Macquarie · #2 08-21-2005, 06:31 AM

I think this is way ahead, and unlikely to be way behind. Even so, your passive line is great here I think, but unlike a WA/WB situation, I'd bet into him on the river - you don't want him to check behind here.

wtfsvi · #3 08-21-2005, 09:22 AM

How is that WA/WB with a straight and a flush draw on the flop and a double flush draw on the turn?

Lead the turn and fold to a raise. As you played it, fold if you think he has a 5, push all-in if you don't think he has one. His most probable holding after the flop-raise is some mid pair, so you might as well get the money in while his overpair is still an overpair. A draw is also possible, and then it's also pretty obvious that pushing is best.

And if you intend to call all-in anyway on the river, just push yourself. His calling range should be bigger than his betting range here. (He would be pretty retarded if he bet a made hand you beat).

ludo72 · #4 08-21-2005, 09:59 AM

Thanks, this was exactly the type of reply I was looking for. I'm stilla a bit confused with this whole concept.

GimmeDaWatch · #5 08-21-2005, 12:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks, this was exactly the type of reply I was looking for. I'm stilla a bit confused with this whole concept.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, its true that you could be WA/WB, but the board is very draw heavy, so lets say he's got the nut flush draw, for example. In this case, you want to get the money in as quickly as possible, or vs any middle pair as was mentioned b4 (super LAGs usually arent folding their overpairs in this spot, but they may check behind if overs come). Not to mention the fact that an over or diamond could hit the turn which may let him bet you off the hand even if you're ahead.

Macquarie · #6 08-21-2005, 07:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How is that WA/WB with a straight and a flush draw on the flop and a double flush draw on the turn?

Lead the turn and fold to a raise. As you played it, fold if you think he has a 5, push all-in if you don't think he has one. His most probable holding after the flop-raise is some mid pair, so you might as well get the money in while his overpair is still an overpair. A draw is also possible, and then it's also pretty obvious that pushing is best.

And if you intend to call all-in anyway on the river, just push yourself. His calling range should be bigger than his betting range here. (He would be pretty retarded if he bet a made hand you beat).

[/ QUOTE ]

I read it as extremely likely villain had an overpair here. In this case, we aren't concerned that the board is draw heavy,,,villain has two outs. If we hedge our bets and try also to protect against a villain who might be drawing don't we risk losing value from 99/TT/JJ etc?

I guess this comes down to a more general question - if we put villain very probably on hand1 but perhaps on hand2, should we play to extract the most out of hand1 ignoring the possibility of hand2, or play some middle line that has less EV against hand1 but more EV against hand2?