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  #1  
Old 07-10-2005, 06:23 PM
tinhat tinhat is offline
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Default this is why 6m frustrates me

This hand is from awhile back - so no reads. And I'm going to make my comments first (and please don't just say "dude, you gotta cap the flop" - tell me WHY you undervalue the action):

villain pfr utg but doesn't cap so I'm thinking A/K-big or pp

villain c-r pf 3-bettor with ugly board so now I'm thinking two pair, set or str; who c-r a draw against pf 3-bettor?

turn/river suck but I can't see folding AA HU (mistake but...).

sd: why I'm so often turned around in 6m - raising utg and c-r pf 3-bettor with this?? Too often I'm doing the wrong thing at the wrong time precisely because I see so much of this kind of crap. I'm losing the most with my losers because there's so much stealing and overvaluing of hands that I feel compelled to call down decent hands while winning the least with winners because I mistake signs of strength.

htf do you deal with these?
Cap flop anyway and hope he has crap?
Call down?
Fold it on turn lead?

I'm showing the entire hand because I see this a lot but I also call down somebody that flopped a straight and think "why did I ignore the signals?" It just can't be a read-dependent thing because there's too many hands played where you know almost nothing about the player(s). And I've only started doing this lately - I have no idea how many winners I've thrown away before.


Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

UTG has 7s Kh (one pair, kings).
Hero has Ac Ah (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Hero wins 9.75 BB.
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  #2  
Old 07-10-2005, 06:37 PM
kapw7 kapw7 is offline
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Default Re: this is why 6m frustrates me

The possibility of having a straight/set is much smaller than him having a pair so I cap easily the flop and simply call-down after the semi-scary turn and bet if he checks. K7o UTG? One for your buddy list.
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  #3  
Old 07-10-2005, 06:47 PM
TomBrooks TomBrooks is offline
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Default Re: this is why 6m frustrates me

Chill out. The hand example you gave was a scary board. Villian could easily have made two pair, a set or a straight. I think you played it fine. If the board was something like K85, I might think Villian was checkraising TPTK (ie AK). It's possible it would have KK also for a set. You pays your money and you takes your chances. Since this villian had K7o, he looks like a donk. You ought to be happy is at your table. Don't worry, be happy.
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  #4  
Old 07-10-2005, 06:56 PM
Shillx Shillx is offline
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Default Re: this is why 6m frustrates me

This post is wrong on so many levels and I'll do my best to correct them (or at least some).

#1 - People raise and 3-bet lighter in a 6max game then at a full table.

If this were a full ring game, you should be more concerned about the villians flop check/raise. His UTG raise means that he has a bigger hand. Same goes for your 3-bet. When the flop comes out KJ9 and you get check/raised you have to fear JJ or 99 or even KK more in this spot.

When the villian raises UTG and c/r's the flop in a 5 handed game, you just can't put him on a monster hand as often since he will be raising liberally preflop.

#2 - The villian isn't a good player.

Bad players will overvalue their hand in spots like this with hands like KQ or AK. They aren't thinking much about what you might hold (other then the fact that you have a good hand). What they will concentrate on is the fact that they floppped top pair with KT and thus...they need to check/raise.

If the villian were a good player, he would never check/raise the flop with K7. He wouldn't do it with something like KQ either (I wouldn't even do it with AK). To counter this, they will sometimes check/raise with a hand like AT [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (so a flop c/r doesn't always mean a monster hand). So against a solid player you should never 3-bet the flop. If he has a draw, he will only be a small underdog and will not mind getting 3-bet. But those times that he has KJ or JJ or 99 he will punish you for getting crazy.

You should do the exact opposite against bad players. If they had JJ or 99, they would have check/raised the turn instead of the flop. Their flop raise almost always means one pair and you can punish them by 3-betting the flop. Bad players also tend to check/call draws so you can be pretty sure that he is drawing to 5 outs when he makes this play.

Brad

Edit...

There should also be some consideration given to just calling on the flop and then raising the turn. If you had the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], I would always 3-bet the flop. The worst time to wait is on a board like...

6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] -- Why?

There are too many turn cards that can come to freeze him up. He might decide to check/call a broadway turn card and that sucks if he has a hand like 88. The best time to use this play is on a drawless board with a high card. So...

K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

is a good time for this play since there aren't many scare cards in the deck. A flop like KJ9 is tricky because it is tough to follow through should a K-9 hit. It is better to get the value now with the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] since you should probably just call if a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] were to hit. If he makes a flush and you don't have the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], you are drawing dead and you can fold to his turn 3-bet. I would feel sick putting 3-bets in on the turn drawing to just 7 outs.

Edit 2 - Don't even consider folding this hand.
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  #5  
Old 07-10-2005, 07:49 PM
shadow29 shadow29 is offline
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Default Re: this is why 6m frustrates me

Word.

Brad- what game you playing nowadays?
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  #6  
Old 07-10-2005, 08:00 PM
Shillx Shillx is offline
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Default Re: this is why 6m frustrates me

what game you playing nowadays?

Party $33 SNGs
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  #7  
Old 07-10-2005, 08:11 PM
shadow29 shadow29 is offline
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Default Re: this is why 6m frustrates me

[ QUOTE ]


Party $33 SNGs

[/ QUOTE ]

Weak sauce.
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  #8  
Old 07-11-2005, 03:23 AM
zephed zephed is offline
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Default Re: this is why 6m frustrates me

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="green">
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, Hero calls.</font>

[/ QUOTE ]
You are ahead of the following:
AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, KT, QJ, Q9, JT, QQ, TT, 88-22.

He's going to have K-something the majority of the time he makes this flop move.

You are behind:
KK, JJ, 99, KJ, K9, J9, QT.

You count out the possible combinations, I'm lazy. It's pretty easy to just eyeball it and conclude you are ahead here the vast majority of the time. Whatever happens after the flop, make sure you showdown.

This is a pretty easy flop 3-bet. Punish him, he doesn't know you have aces, he thinks his hand is probably good.
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