15/30 - I was questioned about my play (long) - Page 2

David Ottosen · #11 12-28-2002, 01:03 AM

These players are betting, raising, reraising, etc, and you're worried they're going to fold?

I tend to give no thought to the idea of these kinds of players folding. They sure don't fold when you have 2 pair, believe me. I also (especially on a flushed board) insist on getting maximum action ASAP, in case there are players out there with dry high flush cards who (once they miss the river) will be folding, or in this game, even gutshout straights or low pocket pairs still looking for that elusive spike on the river. Also remember that you don't have a mortal lock on this pot (regardless of how bad they all are, they certainly are capable of having 2 pair or a set at any given moment), so you have to charge the opposition to beat you.

I like the bird in the hand of bets on the turn when I have the nuts and other people are drawing/hoping, rather than the two in the bush, of the river when I have the nuts and all they have is a busted draw.

brad · #12 12-28-2002, 01:52 AM

i think jam the turn because youre gonna lose way less than 1/4 of the time because the river wont pair very often becuase youre up against multiple sets / two pair / pairs and theyve got each others outs.

i think its reasonable to assume theres only like 6 cards that can come to beat you on the river.

soda · #13 12-28-2002, 04:01 AM

Question #1: Would you have played the hand pre-flop?

No. Very poor odds for flush draw. Ace is crap.

Question #2: Would you have raised the flop?

No. Want to keep everyone in, not knock people out.

Question #3: Would you have 3-bet at this point? Do you wait to make sure the river doesn't pair the board? I wasn't sure what MP may have had, but guessed something like KQ or QJ of hearts. I do not believe he would have pushed AA (without the A of hearts).

Yes, 3 bet. Not raising here is incredibly poor poker. You've caught several people with big second best hands. You will get action - 3 bet.

Question #4: Would you have bet out?

Yes, unless I was positive someone else would bet it for me. Having it checked around is a terrible mistake. Betting and getting 3 or 4 callers - how can that be bad? Only bad if you are very, very sure someone else will bet.

Question #5: What could the rest of the players had, that allowed them to play the way they did through the entire hand, and then have everyone call at the river? I figure that even loose players can't make a call when they are essentially over calling for the 3rd or 4th time?!

JQ (straight) a set and a smaller flush are all probably out there.

Nice hand,

soda

cero_z · #14 12-29-2002, 03:49 AM

The real debatable play you made in this hand was the pre-flop call. I like it IN THIS GAME, because in games full of bad players, hands like yours win way more than they should.
After that, I think you were too passive, as nobody's folding or paying any attention to you. The flop call is not as bad as not 3-betting the turn would've been, as it's getting capped there about 100% of the time anyway. Two points: You don't need a free card, and with at least 3 opponents, 9 outs twice is PLENTY. Also, the pot is so big by the turn that you won't lose anyone by raising. Good bet on the river; your friends are nitpicking, and incorrect to boot.

astroglide · #15 12-29-2002, 04:54 AM

Question #2: Would you have raised the flop?

No. Want to keep everyone in, not knock people out.

there were 25 bets in the pot, all from people who were in for a cap preflop and 4 bets on the flop. you disagree with raising because IT'S GOING TO KNOCK SOMEONE OUT?

soda · #16 12-30-2002, 03:48 PM

Yes, I disagree with raising this flop. Although our hero wants to see the flop capped, he doesn't want to be the one to do it.

My first reason was because I did not want to knock anyone out, so I'll start here and add a few more.

1) It is three bets to our hero in the SB. He can smooth call or make it four. Making it four bets causes the BB to now call 4 cold instead of 3. UTG must now call 3 cold instead of 2. Also, an out of position re-reraise means much more and will get more respect than a reraise from late position.

2) Building on that last notion. Our hero's out of position 4 bet is likely to get a lot of respect. The betting *may* shut down now if a heart falls on the turn and our hero checkraises or bets. This is even more true if our hero is viewed as the tight player at the table.

3) Fourbetting here defines our hero's hand and keeps him from getting information from other players. After an out of position four bet, his hand can be put into two categories, big hand or big draw. Unless, of course, our hero is viewed as an idiot. Then, he should just go ahead and raise. I don't think this is the case.

4) This flop is very likely to be capped anyway, without help from our hero. In this instance it wasn't, but only because the set of fives made a strange play.

I suppose it really doesn't matter too much, but I'm always trying to maximize the money I can win. I think smoothcalling and then checkraising is the path I'd have chosen. Actually, I'd have likely bet the flop out of the gate too.

soda

astroglide · #17 12-30-2002, 03:52 PM

your initial point about knocking people out was what i took task with, but that's the only point you brought up...

as for the respecting the cap bit, in all the games i play (local and online) this is a 'what the hell' cap - nothing to respect

bernie · #18 12-30-2002, 04:55 PM

if i was asking myself these questions i wouldnt be playing 30-60...no offense intended, but think about it...

preflop...

funny youre assessment of the hand after the 4 bet really has nothing to do with the 4 bet but is on par with the 3 bet...

"I was not very happy, because even if we ignored VAM, I began to wonder what UTG and UTG+1 had limped with, not to mention what MP had originally raised, and 4-bet with. I figured my hand to be a large underdog"

this shouldve been thought of before calling...youre playing against more than JUST the maniac, you ignored the rest of the table until the 4 bet...

question 1.....usually no, i wont play that hand...i like A2s-A5s better, and even those id think twice...

question 2....yes, id have raised...it's not a matter of knocking others out...spiking an A isnt going to win, you need to hit your flush...

question 3 ...hell yes im raising the turn...if it's no limit, im going all in at this point...

"Do you wait to make sure the river doesn't pair the board? "

this is very weak tight way of thinking...its kind of obvious what the SP has...isnt it? if he sees you as a SP also and one that wont get out of line and make standard bets, say, when you hit the nut on the turn, he really doesnt have a call on the river if he reads you right....hed probably make the pot odds argument, but that would be ignoring a read that there's very little room for you, as a SP to be bluffing with anything lesser than something he could beat given the board and the other players involved....would you bet the turn like that with 2 pair? he has an easy river fold to a bet by you....

question 4....how did they normally play the rivers? this may be a spot to check raise....but it would sure suck to have it checked thru...but i may have gone for the c/r given the players...there are much worse plays than betting out...

question 5....who knows....

im still wondering why these 'good' players say not to raise the turn....i wonder just how 'good' they are.....this is an easy raise..and with only 3 opponents the set is a -EV call for that betting round for every bet he calls...why wouldnt you charge him to draw? weak tights arent necesarily good players even though they play good cards...

nice hand...other than preflop, i think you played postflop fine...

b

bernie · #19 12-30-2002, 05:04 PM

it's hard to collect more on the river after they missed. charge their ass...

b

bernie · #20 12-30-2002, 05:21 PM

"3) Fourbetting here defines our hero's hand and keeps him from getting information from other players. After an out of position four bet, his hand can be put into two categories, big hand or big draw."

so how much more defined is his hand when he comes alive on the turn and bets when the flush card hits? THAT bet wold kill his action a little more IMO.

just wondering...what would you cap this flop with? only top set? how hard would that be to read?

this is an easy cap...his range of hands could be pretty wide with this raise...and also disguise it a little for when he does actually hit his hand...

ive seen many action hands killed by the wait til you have it, then bet it, when it's obvious, play. i dont think a flop cap is that easily defined...he could also do it with a set, 2 pair, draw, top pair..etc...wide range...i dont think it's so easily defined...

however, youre point about possibly being 4 bet behind is good...but id still cap myself...youre not gaining much info with these players anyway.

remember the table texture and description of the players...they dont become 'thinking'/good post flop players just because youre in the pot, unless you have proof from previous hands youre involved in that they adjust when youre in...

b