Terrible call on the turn? and question about pot odds

[Sqred]

I know my advice was simplistic but he is at a pretty early stage in his development. If you are getting three callers the money going in on the flop has positive expectation if he indeed has the best draw. If you don't think you have the best draw why in the world would you call any bets with what is currently ten high?

I understand the criticism of my simplicity, but what good does passively playing decent non-nut draws do? Might as well muck it if you are that big of a pessimist. The last thing I would do is just check call the ting and get myself caught in a spot like he did on the turn.

Also, I think by putting in as many as possible on the flop I will have a much better idea how live my draw is once that goofy action breaks out on the turn.

As it is, he called one small bet when he probably had the best draw and a multiway pot that gave him positive expectation to raise, then he got trapped for 4 BIG BETS without getting the right odds for his draw.

I really think a lot of the old hands really play non nut flush draws to passively. Fine, reduce variance, but then why bother getting involved at all? There have been times in my life when I have simply called the flop and check folded this type of draw on the turn when big action broke out. I was on a short bankroll, needed every dime I had, and was trying to grind a 20/40 for 300 a day. In this day and age players who passively play non nut flush draws are leaving money on the table.

FJM

[Fudomyo]

Anyone want to mention that it's a horrible flop call? It's suited. Has basically no straight potential. Once card straights are often tied, and lose to 2 card straights. If you miss all that, you want a 5 high flop, since any 10 should kick your ass (or noone has a 10 and you win little $$)

Once you fold, it's easy to play.

$0.02

[bernie]

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Anyone want to mention that it's a horrible flop call? Once you fold, it's easy to play

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No. But i'll mention how horrible this statement is. He flopped 4 to a flush with 3 opponents in. I'd raise in this spot. Folding is out of the question.

Do you often fold 4 to a flush on the flop for a bet and 2 callers?

b

[bernie]

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You sir are [censored] on the turn and you need to get away from this hand.

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No way is he getting away from his hand here.

b

[bernie]

Your turn call is fine.

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I think I would have folded if it I only had a four flush

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Don't fold 4 to a flushes on unpaired boards. For now, always figure you're going to the river with them. I cannot believe people are advocating folding on the turn here.

Many of the biggest pots i've seen taken down have been by baby flushes. Given the turn action, barring the board pairing, I'd feel strongly that if I hit my flush on the end it will be good.

b

[spamuell]

In particular, ramming and jamming a medium flush draw with no other outs against two or three opponents is not a great idea.

This is just not true against 3 opponents. Even given that some of the time you're going to make your flush and lose, you're still 1.86:1 to hit by the river (which you will be seeing almost 100% of the time).

Checkraising the flop in this example is clearly a +EV play.

[MicroBob]

There is some, to say the least, "interesting" advice in this thread.

Folding on the turn would be a bad idea.

I agree with Bernie's assessment that the original poster may want to consider stepping back in levels while he is learning about implied-odds, etc. (get SSHE....much of the material is applicable to party 15/30).
It may be a bit insulting, but I think it's important to walk before you can run (or something like that).

[vector2]

I can certainly agree if he happened to flop a gutshot +
flushdraw. Is cr'ing the flop still +EV with his hand?

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Checkraising the flop in this example is clearly a +EV play.

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[spamuell]

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I can certainly agree if he happened to flop a gutshot +
flushdraw. Is cr'ing the flop still +EV with his hand?


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Yes. Not if someone has a set, but there's no reason to believe they should on the flop.

[Blake Lovely]

Am I missing something here? If he thinks that the whole table will call back to him he is getting 13.33 bb vs the 3 bb he'll put in. this is around 4.5-1, the odds of him making his flush on the river is just greater than 5-1. Ok no disagreement there.
if he thinks it will get capped off and everyone will call, that is 16.33 vs the 4 bb he will put in, this is just barely over 4-1.

So you guys are advising that he SHOULD call his 5-1 shot on a pot laying him 4.5 to 1? plus there is a very good chance with this action that if he gets there he is beaten by a higher flush, and a really really good chance that if the board pairs his flush is no good. Leaving him 7 outs. pushing him to just barely better than 7-1.

Lets assume he gets 3BB out of his opponents on the river. 1 from each. which if noone has a flush or boat action will die when flush gets there. If many bets go in on the river when he gets there hes probly not good.
So assuming that you can push him to getting 5.5-1 if its not capped and less than 5-1 if it gets capped. so if it gets capped its -ev unless he can extract more than 1 bet from every opponent on the river when his flush gets there.
If it doesnt get capped it is +ev only if all 9 diamonds are clean and there is no higher flush out.

I dont think that this play wins money over time.
Am I overlooking something?