Ciaffone and getting raised in turn?

[therockofgibraltar]

Trying to improve my turn game a little and just finished reading Ciaffone's book's turn -section and getting raised in turn -section. He sure folds a lot! A lot more than I. Maybe that is my problem?! Basically he mucks top pair when raised in turn if:
a) more than one opponent (there were limpers before the raise)
b) the board is paired or
c) somewhat coordinated
unless the pot is huge.

What do you think about that?

Ciaffone have played poker longer than 2*my age and everywhere from 10-20 to 200-400 to NL games, so he sure knows HOW TO PLAY! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
So I'm not questioning that! I'm just thinking that is these advices good for small stakes poker or are they more towards upper limits?

But everyone here says that small stakes online is like lower middle limit in B&M, so the advices are good?

I personally fold too little in turn and I guess that is a serious flaw in my game.

[ripped]

Depending on the pot size should be the most important factor.. Then as Ed miller says you should also be aware of your outs and more importantly your "hidden outs" that are outlined in Ed Millers new book. I myself would never read a thing he has out and surely would never buy anything he puts out there.

[fsuplayer]

you are missing out then. he is one of the top authors in the game.

[slavic]

I myself would never read a thing he has out and surely would never buy anything he puts out there.

Your only cheating yourself. His work is excellent, sometimes a bit weak but his way of taking you through a hand is well done. Remember Ed's book is based on playing in games with a general player type and he focuses heavily on what to do in larger pots, the importance of outs, hand strength and not making big folds.(I know I'm leaving topics out and his section on playing AK is a brilliant piece.) Ciaffone talks quite a bit more about players, steals, bluffs, hand reading, Deception and betting patterns. In big pots those items aren't as important. In a tougher middle limit game they add much to your play.

[ripped]

Well I will admit that someone posted a few comments that he makes in his books about certain hands and I couldnt believe what he was saying you should have done. I have read about 5 books that Sklansky, Malmuth and now Miller have done and base much of my gameplay from these books.
I might be mistaken and as a couple of you have stated I probably am.. I read the book by it's cover when I saw what was posted in 2+2 from Ciaffone in his book and was like "that is 1 player I will never follow". I take it he also writes for high limit poker and I am not a high limit player and wont be for quite some time yet. I am enjoying my low-med limit games right now.

is 20/40 low limit or medium to the pros?.. I sure dont think it's low..lol

[Fabian]

I reread parts of his book last night for the first time in quite a while and was very surprised when I read some of those hand examples.

I think the book is very good if you are aware that the advice might not be perfect for a game like the party 15/30.

[fnord_too]

There is a lot of debate about some of Ciaffone's advice, but here's the thing:

His logic is right on. The only thing you can question are his assumptions. Any table will be different, and his assumptions are based on his experience. The important thing is to be able to think through the situations given what you know about the game, and he is very good at letting you know his thought process, which is very sound.

[Fudomyo]

What limit do you play?

I don't think you'd ever get to the showdown in 10/20 or 15/30. At least some days it feels that way.

It's also helpful to go back through and look through all the hands you were raised on the turn on. Easier said than done, but I won more than I remember.

Fudo

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Rocky:

Here's part of my review of their book that addresses this point.

[ QUOTE ]
There is one problem with their advice I find a little more troublesome, and it made this book very difficult to rate. By my count there are just over 100 hands where the authors say to fold. I question many of these folds. There are also a fair number of hands where the authors say to call where I consider raising a reasonable alternative. Now when I question, it doesn’t mean that Ciaffone and Brier have it wrong, or even that their advice is wrong the majority of the time (in these spots). But it does mean, to me, that their propensity to constantly attempt to save bets, especially when the pots are large, could eventually cause those who follow this advice some problems.


Put another way, if you are unknown to your opponents and play like they describe, you will probably have no difficulty. But as you become known, some of your opponents should begin to exploit this flaw, and your ability to win should begin to fall off. In fact, if and when I feel someone plays as the authors describe, I’ll work an extra bet or raise in every now and then. If enough people begin to do this, and this should eventually happen to a regular player, some pots that should be yours will be taken away from you, and your overall results should deteriorate.


[/ QUOTE ]

Best wishes,

Mason