QQ vs. Half the table

Azhrarn · #1 08-29-2005, 01:10 AM

Early hand at a table. No individual reads, but table has been playing looser and more passive than usual.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. MP3 posts a blind of $5.
UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP3 (poster) calls, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (18.40 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: (12.20 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, UTG folds.

River: (17.20 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP3 bets, CO folds, Button calls, Hero folds, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 20.20 BB

Thoughts? I can see arguments for playing every street differently.

W. Deranged · #2 08-29-2005, 01:30 AM

1. I don't see why you'd do anything different pre-flop or on the flop. Anyone advocating a flop check-raise or anything other than a bet should think about how catastrophic letting the flop check through could be.

2. The turn check is really interesting, as it would seem that you are doing the "check-the-turn-with-outs" maneuver. Well, my thought is that we need to do a serious logical consistency check here before we proceed with that kind of line:

-If we are behind to the obvious straight, we have 3 outs to a higher one card straight which will sometimes be chops or even dead to KQ. So let's say that's 2.5 outs. Getting 16-1 ish on the turn, we should realize that we do not have enough outs to continue if in fact we are drawing.

-If the thought is then that we should often get to showdown here, then I feel that we really need to follow through with a bet on the turn because we cannot allow overcards to beat us out of the pot by getting a free card. I think that unless there are a ton of overcallers before a raise, we usually won't have odds to call a turn raise and so I don't have much of a problem bet-folding here on the turn given reads and so forth.

-To me, a check on the turn is a concession of the hand. If we check the turn, we should probably fold because we'll usually be beat, but I really don't want to fold the best hand when a late position player bets a J thinking it's good.

3. River is odd. If we were calling for a combination of drawing value and immediate value, I would think we have to usually see a showdown, though I understand that a line that involves showing down against all non-overcard river could be okay to.

If it were me, I would pretty much always be leading both the flop and the turn, and then proceeding on the turn based on a read, though often simply folding to a turn raise. In a multiway pot here, we'll certainly be ahead enough to keep fighting, but I doubt we'll often be raised on the turn by an inferior hand given the scary board.

Osprey · #3 08-29-2005, 01:33 AM

Never played 5/10 online, but I am amazed at what people show down sometime. No one has shown particular strength, I think you need to overcall at the river if you take the check/call line you did on the turn. If you bet the turn and got raised, I think you could fold at that point. I think you need to see the showdown since no one made it particularily expensive.

Azhrarn · #4 08-29-2005, 04:56 AM

Very nice analysis, W.

1. I've never been a big "go for a checkraise on the flop after putting in the last be pre-flop" guy. I do like to consider it from time to time. If nothing else, doing it helps disguise the times I check the flop in ep after raising intending to peel for one bet (or check intending to fold.) Anyway, I decided not to because the original raiser was on my left, and maybe he'd be nice and raise me with a hand I was beating.

2. I strongly considered bet-fold. It might have been a better plan. Instead, I did a partial concession and decided to let the action convince me. I was planning on probably folding (a lot of the time it's going to be a bet and raise before it gets back to me), but instead I was almost closing the action and getting better odds than I expected. (Although not quite there, as you pointed out.) I unfortunately did not have a plan for if it was checked around to a late position guy who bet. That was the worst-case scenario for my turn plan, as it didn't clarify if I was behind.

3. I was going to play the river by ear when I called the turn. The king convinced me to fold, although I almost changed my mind when UTG+1 checked the river. I suspect I would have called the river if it wasn't a heart, jack, king or ace (and it wasn't raised.)