SSHE "Hidden Outs"

[Jeoke]

Im curious how to apply the Hidden outs exercises in SSHE to my play. I understand how they work and everything but how do I use that concept while im playing? Obviously Its impossible to know exactly what your opponent has. Would It be better to guess the chance your oponent has a hand and then factor it in on that? Is that even a realistic thing to do?

Basically... when and how should I use this?

[POKhER]

I read this last night, and i laid there thinking "I'll never know my opponents cards, and it will most likly be very rare ill get into this situation... So to answer these hidden out questions is a good waste of ten minutes". I answered the first and 2nd and last then moved on to the next pages of the book.

I guess it may come in when you hold say K8o on say a blind defence question(He's raised from button after he's been folding to, and your sat on the bigblind - this could be a bluff from him, so its to make you fold so he steals your BB).

Well if you have K8 and are worried about your kicker and he bets the flop and say the turn, you'll wonder what hands he may have.

Now we dont know he has KQ or AK or KT, So on a K99J board, you're wondering what you will split with, what you can beat and wheter you're ahead of any possible holdings.

If he has KT your hand isK8) = KK99J and his will be KK99J so you'll split.

But if you put him on KQ your screwed. You'd then weigh up the chances of him having each hand(Which is covered briefly in the first pages of his hand, something like KK or QQ vs your AK).

Am re-reading it before i go on to WTO/TOP [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Although i had to skip alot of the start as i play 6max and the preflop was more aimed to 10/9 players(Full ring).

Hope i've helped, better get back to studying (this post is rushed).

[OrangeKing]

I find it most useful with weak aces - say, A3 on an AK59 board. If you think you're likely up against a better ace (but not AK, since they didn't raise preflop), all the 9s, 5s, and possibly even the Ks are hidden outs for you.

[AKQJ10]

The important point isn't the precise calculations, because it's always going to be a judgment call whether opponent is 10% or 15% or 20% to hold a set when she raises the turn, etc. While it's good practice to analyze hands based on such estimates as a post mortem, you can't expect to do that math at the table even if you could estimate the probability of each opponent's hand with pinpoint accuracy. IMO the point of the hidden outs chapter is to awaken the reader to the fact that these outs do exist.

Real world example of the top of my head: you pick up AA, and opponent has been playing passively as you bet or raised the flop. But suddenly, on the turn, opponent raises. (I believe this is similar to Ed's first example, don't have it handy though.)

Depending on the board you may be more or less scared that opponent has made two pair or a set. But whatever your course of action, you need to keep in mind that you have an additional 6 outs to beat a lesser two pair (in addition to the aces). Before I read Ed's book, I didn't always take these hidden outs into consideration. They're not full outs because you may be drawing thin to a set or better, but they're important to estimating whether to fold, call, or raise.

If you figure you have only two outs to improve AA in the situation described, you're underestimating your hand and will fold too often.

Then as I see this develop the hidden outs are some what of an inverse to being counterfieted when holding low pairs.

What I mean if I read you correctly OrangeKing the hidden outs are outs which will in a similiar way counterfiet your pocket holding giving your hand of A3 added strength by eliminating the kicker you hold and replacing it with cards on the board to complete your hand at a more competitive strength. In this case going for a split pot.

[ZenMusician]

Sort of. Hidden outs are more useful when they
counterfeit your OPPONENTS holding.

-ZEN

That makes perfect since to me and has planted it in my head for future reference. With that in mind then there are indeed two ways hidden outs can accomplish making my hand hold up.

Thank's ZEN!

[RustyCJ]

Hidden outs are difficult to actually put into play for me as well, I do look for them and I feel they are most useful when you're up against 1 or 2 opponents, against more than that it's just difficult to judge.

I had a hand the other day, where it was folded to MP2 who limped, folded to me in the CO with AA, I raised, everyone folded. Flop came QJ3 rainbow. check to me and I bet, MP2 called. Turn was a 7. check to me, I bet and he raised, i had a bit of a read on him and was pretty sure I was up against 2 pair in QJ. Well the river brought a 3, he bet and I raised.

To me they are most valuable in nullifying kickers and for extra outs when you have an over pair and are pretty sure you're up against 2 pair.

[masse75]

I agree that the counterfeiting section is pretty important, too...even for things like saving a bit of rake.

I have AJo, he has a weaker A--but he's unwilling to fold. The board comes A727Q. If he bets, I flat call, as I now have to play the board Q as my kicker (and so will he)...so save a bit of rake.

In essence, what are HIS hidden outs.