PLO8 cat and mouse

[XxPenguinxX]

What do you make of Hero's and Villain's play here?

PokerStars Game #3239678307: Omaha Hi/Lo Pot Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2005/12/04 - 14:37:21 (ET)
Table 'Riceia' Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: kcchia80 ($40.75 in chips)
Seat 2: Villain ($55.85 in chips)
Seat 3: sloper ($24.40 in chips)
Seat 4: daffysneezer ($11.90 in chips)
Seat 5: zobe49 ($10.55 in chips)
Seat 6: funkyc ($13.65 in chips)
Seat 7: Hero($24.70 in chips)
Seat 8: Karsa ($13.85 in chips)
Seat 9: Kelly82 ($23.95 in chips)
Villain: posts small blind $0.10
sloper: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [Ac 4c 3c Ks]
daffysneezer: folds
zobe49: calls $0.25
funkyc: calls $0.25
Hero: calls $0.25
Karsa: folds
Kelly82: folds
kcchia80: calls $0.25
Villain: calls $0.15
sloper: checks
*** FLOP *** [8s 2h 9h]
Villain: bets $1.45
3 folds
Hero: raises $2.30 to $3.75 I thought a big raise here might make him fold a bare A3 or something he wasn't that sure of
1 fold
Villain: calls $2.30
*** TURN *** [8s 2h 9h] [4s]
Villain: checks
Hero: bets $8.60 That check smacks of weakness to me - again, thought he might lay it down
Villain: calls $8.60
*** RIVER *** [8s 2h 9h 4s] [8d]
Villain: checks
Hero: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Villain: shows [9s 7s 4d 9c] (HI: a full house, Nines full of Eights)
Hero: shows [Ac 4c 3c Ks] (HI: two pair, Eights and Fours; LO: 8,4,3,2,A)
Villain collected $12.50 from pot
Hero collected $12.45 from pot

[jthegreat]

Villian should have reraised the flop. Hero's line will get him quartered often and sometimes lose him a ton when no low falls. Hero should have called with the nut low draw and hoped to win low while the others fought for high.

Both players F'd this one up. The low draw is going to lose long term raising a naked low draw on the flop like that, unless the villian is very weak. The villian's call of the raise on the flop is fine (whoever said he should reraise needs to go run top set vs. low+flush draw in 2dimes). Turn play fine both. However, villian should lead the river w/ top full. Once in a while he'll catch a donk playing flopped 2 pair like a jackass for a stack, the rest of the time it's a chop at no risk (except quads, but that's virtually never a reason to check top full).

[jthegreat]

On the flop, Villain was a 63 to 37 favorite. Even if Hero had the nut low+flush draw, Villain was only a 52 to 48 dog. Reraising is not a bad play, especially considering he could just be facing a middle set. It's a profitable play at these limits, at least, considering the number of people who make mistakes like the OP made.

That may be true--but if you want to play at higher limits (200 and up) and not lose your ass, I'd recommend taking it easier w/ top set no low draw on a two-to-a-low, two-to-a-flush flop. The time to get money in w/ that hand is after a turn brick arrives. The 52/48 here is about as good as it gets for this situation. Give the low draw some straight outs and it's real bad to give him a chance to get all-in on the flop.

[Cooker]

I agree that the turn play is fine for both, but as villain would you be looking to get a lot of money in on a more favorable turn card (like a non flush high card). Do you try a check raise as villain on a high turn, or do you just want to bet out here? I think a check raise will often work against someone showing this much aggression on the flop, but I wouldn't love to give a free card to a naked low draw. I guess this is read dependent, since I would want to check raise anyone who would bet and just bet out if someone with a low and flush draw might slow down.

[jthegreat]

Won't argue any of that (in reference to higher limit play).

Given flop action, I agree turn chk-raise would be best line. Opponent dependent of course.

[XxPenguinxX]

[ QUOTE ]
Both players F'd this one up. The low draw is going to lose long term raising a naked low draw on the flop like that, unless the villian is very weak. The villian's call of the raise on the flop is fine (whoever said he should reraise needs to go run top set vs. low+flush draw in 2dimes). Turn play fine both. However, villian should lead the river w/ top full. Once in a while he'll catch a donk playing flopped 2 pair like a jackass for a stack, the rest of the time it's a chop at no risk (except quads, but that's virtually never a reason to check top full).

[/ QUOTE ]

If you were Villain, with no reads, which of the following would you fold on the flop to that raise?

1) A3 with nothing for hi (like I have)
2) middle or bottom set
3) 2 pair hands
4) Flush draws with no low
5) Straight draws with no flush

My thinking was that he would fold most of these, if not on the flop then on the turn if he didn't improve...

[ QUOTE ]
If you were Villain, with no reads, which of the following would you fold on the flop to that raise?

1) A3 with nothing for hi (like I have)
2) middle or bottom set
3) 2 pair hands
4) Flush draws with no low
5) Straight draws with no flush

My thinking was that he would fold most of these, if not on the flop then on the turn if he didn't improve...

[/ QUOTE ]

All of these hands could perhaps find a fold, but I strongly doubt that a player who is *willing to lead for the pot OOP* with these holding is going to fold to a raise. Also, the raise isn't that big of a raise (you can raise up to $4.35, you only raised $2.30)--these medium raises are always going to raise suspicion. If you have a read that this player is loose and very weak, then maybe it's +EV to try to pick up the pot on the flop with a raise. But go for the max raise if anything.

Now, on the flipside, how are you going to respond when the villian reraises you? Suppose villian has A3 with a pair and hearts. Or he has top set (ahem). Now you've completely F'd yourself. It's going to be tough psychologically to lay down nut low draw with c-feit protection in position, but that's what you should do.

IMO the right play here is to call and take one off. Get away from the hand if the low misses, and jam if it comes and the other guy checks (esp if you catch a pair), as you did.