I get fancy with 22

JrJordan · #1 08-26-2005, 03:19 AM

Me and BB have done a little fighting in the blinds and he'll get overaggro vs. me. In general is a very aggressive, slightly tight player (35/15 preflop). Relatively solid minus the overaggro quality, but that could just be me adjusting to the 10/20 game.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 3 folds, Hero completes, BB raises, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG folds, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero raises...

Good for a few reasons. I could get a higher PP to fold, charge a diamond draw an extra BB (if I'm willing to call a river bet), and perhaps get an A-high hand to fold with a whole lot of outs.

Bad because, well I have a pair of 2's, he's shown a crap load of aggression, and I'm putting in a whole lot of money.

So is it FPS or a good play/read?

I have mixed thoughts for the river if he calls this turn. I see check/call, check/fold, and bet/fold as being possibilities.

bank · #2 08-26-2005, 03:22 AM

Bet this flop and just c/c down when utg raises. You don't have to get fancy here he's not folding a better hand on the turn.

wackjob · #3 08-26-2005, 03:31 AM

fold preflop. Getting fancy is another way to say you tried to play tricky which is just about dumb most of the time, especially with a hand like 22 on that board. Your typical player isn't raising rags out of the BB. Many players, tight ones even, will check AK here, only choosing to bet out with QQ-AA from the BB with limpers.

JrJordan · #4 08-26-2005, 03:45 AM

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fold preflop.

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Getting an immediate 5:1 with a minimal chance there's a raise behind me? This is a pretty standard call.

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Getting fancy is another way to say you tried to play tricky which is just about dumb most of the time, especially with a hand like 22 on that board.

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You're right, most of the time getting fancy is dumb. However, this isn't just any board. This is the rag of all rags when it comes to ugly boards (excpet for maybe a rainbow flop). There are many, MANY hands I am beating here when he autobets this flop. This is the type of flop where making a stand with 22 is certainly a reasonable possibility. To dismiss it without thought is just bad poker.

[ QUOTE ]
Your typical player isn't raising rags out of the BB. Many players, tight ones even, will check AK here, only choosing to bet out with QQ-AA from the BB with limpers.

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Also correct, this is a very aggressive and fairly solid 10/20 6-max player. If he has AK here on this rag flop, I guarantee he bets this flop over 95% of the time. In fact, he'll bet this flop with any A, K, Q, pocket pair, or any other 2 cards he feels like because he knows there's a very good chance we both have nothing and will fold. Folding equity alone dictates he'll probably bet this irregardless of his 2 cards.

Now, his flop 3-bet is a concern. Against a "typical" opponent I might be able to soon find a fold since he's not doing this with just overcards. However, let's consider my read of the opponent. Again, he's very aggressive and we've had some tifts in a few HU blind battles. He knows I will play back at him when I believe he is weak, so his 3-bet here can simply be playing back at me. His flop 3-bet does not limit his hand to QQ-AA as you suggest what so ever.

His follow up turn bet doesn't do too much in terms of defining his hand either. He could be betting AK to get a free showdown on the river, he could be betting a mid PP for value, or he could have a monster pocket pair that isn't folding for anything.

If you are willing to consider all of this information I just presented and still say that it was a bad fancy play then I will respect your opinion and we can have a legitimate discussion. Saying it's stupid simply because it's not ABC poker is ignorant and -EV.

J.R. · #5 08-26-2005, 03:48 AM

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fold preflop. Getting fancy is another way to say you tried to play tricky which is just about dumb most of the time, especially with a hand like 22 on that board. Your typical player isn't raising rags out of the BB. Many players, tight ones even, will check AK here, only choosing to bet out with QQ-AA from the BB with limpers.

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puff, puff, PASS..u can't keep holding, otherwise you'll continue to make posts like this

wackjob · #6 08-26-2005, 03:51 AM

I think it sucks because you cannot get a read on your villain, you are spewing chips the majority of the time, every card that falls is a scare card, any PP from villain has you totally owned, the board can counterfit you, and more reasons.

My point here is that this is not the place to take & make a stand and put 5+ BB's into the pot vs. this type of player. I find 22 much stronger vs a good, tight TAG who has the ability to fold sometimes when hes got the better hand.

wackjob · #7 08-26-2005, 03:54 AM

I can't figure if you agree with me or slammed me via some pothead thing!

baronzeus · #8 08-26-2005, 04:10 AM

Jordan: I like the flop raise. I doubt he is folding a higher pocket pair/better hand on the turn, especially given the read ("a little fighting in the blinds...he'll get overaggro") so after he bets the turn I just call down...you are going to get him to fire another one on the river regardless of the card.

helpmeout · #9 08-26-2005, 05:15 AM

the way you played this hand is why you fold preflop

with a sucky low pair like 22 you really dont know where you are at unless you flop trips

sthief09 · #10 08-26-2005, 05:55 AM

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the way you played this hand is why you fold preflop

with a sucky low pair like 22 you really dont know where you are at unless you flop trips

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you can complete there, deal with the occasional raise, and fold every time you don't flop a set, and turn a profit.

if you really can't resist the urge to put in 3 bets on the flop and 2 on the turn without a set against someone who raised preflop then yeah