Something new...

[Spicymoose]

I´ve got to write a paper in the next 45 minutes, so if I finish before then, I will do the math. This seems simple enough that anyone else should be able to do that math though. Did you already do the math and come out with calling the flop being better?

Well, im not raising K7s in middle position but perhaps you can easily get away with it...I think this kind of hand is +ev if it picks up the blinds but -ev if it plays out. I dont like turn bet, what are you raising in that position that hes giving you credit for A6? Also keep in mind, hes passive, if hes betting this may have made him a monster and you just threw your foot into the trap. I raise the flop all the time, but its not a big error not to especially with the overcaller
cdl

Raise the flop. This isn't about FE at all, it's about free card equity. This kind of opponent is the perfect player to use a flop raise against. Save the slow-played draw semibluff for LAGs and TAGs, and remember to use it sparingly.

Against a LPP type, there's no reason to pay 3 small bets to see the river with your FD when you can pay 2 small bets almost all of the time.

EDIT: About the subject title....

Nothing's new in this game. Hold'em has been out for 30 years and every move you can think of has been tried at least once.

[danzasmack]

My dad read Barry G's book and said that was his favorite part - Barry put in something about calling the flop with a flush draw and then raising the turn.

Here's why I don't like it - you raised pf. SB bets out. You say he is "loose/passive" so i think it's safe to say this bet means he has a jack or some kind of made hand. I'd say he folds the turn here almost never. If the turn was an A, K, Q then i like your raise (even if you didn't have the K) because then you may get a weak/passive to fold.

That being said, I make this play almost 100% of the time in a blind battle, or if I have position on the pfr (iow if i cold called - but i don't post those hands because ill get flamed for cold calling lol)

Edit: here i raise the flop

[krishanleong]

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EDIT: About the subject title....

Nothing's new in this game. Hold'em has been out for 30 years and every move you can think of has been tried at least once.

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I didn't say it was something new for you. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Krishan

Why wouldn't you raise the flop? It's for a value given the flush draw and K overcard, plus you have the option to take a free card on the turn.

[TStoneMBD]

the games that i play in might be different from yours, but turn semibluff raises get paid off every time. i raise the flop and bet the turn, they are more convinced that way and i find semibluffing like that works much better. i dont think you should start semibluffing the turn just to add trickiness to your game. do it against opponents who you think are folding hands against you to your turn raises especially if they dont trust your flop raises. also try to make sure they arent the type to 3bet your turn raise.

Good Point.

[colgin]

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Raising the flop just has too much value not to in this situation.

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Can you quantify it?

Run these scenerios. Both call the flop raise, you hit the turn get 1 bet from 1 opponent on turn + river. Both call the raise, you check the turn and hit the river and get 1 bet on river. Both call raise you check turn and miss.

Versus, calling the flop hitting the turn and getting 2 BB on turn, 1 on river. calling flop, calling turn (middle player folds) hitting river and getting 2 BB on river. Calling flop, calling turn, folding river.

Krishan

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My quick EV calcs show the flop raise withthe assumptions you laid out being slightly more EV. Others can check my math.

Scenario 1 (flop raise):

(.24)(6.5BB) + (.76)[(.24)(5.5BB) + (.76)(-1BB)] = 1.9856BB

Scenario 2(call down):

(.24)(6.5BB) + (.76)[(.24)(6.5BB) + (.76)(-1.5BB)] = 1.8792BB

Edit: To clarify, for simplicity's sake I just counted flush draw outs (becuase I did not want to discount for King outs which are going to be good often but not always; I also rounded percentages for the nine-outer without making adjustments for one additional card beng out on the turn).

[krishanleong]

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the games that i play in might be different from yours, but turn semibluff raises get paid off every time. i raise the flop and bet the turn, they are more convinced that way and i find semibluffing like that works much better.

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We play in the same games. It's really tough trying to integrate new plays into your repetoire. Some things work at different limits. Sometimes the board texture is critical, other times it can be the player read. I don't have a good feel for which semi-bluff works better at 10/20-20/40.

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i dont think you should start semibluffing the turn just to add trickiness to your game. do it against opponents who you think are folding hands against you to your turn raises especially if they dont trust your flop raises. also try to make sure they arent the type to 3bet your turn raise.

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I'm not trying to add trickyness to my game. I edited the hand because I did not raise the turn. I called. This is a spot where I think my coach might have liked a raise. Raising the turn with a 8+ out draw was something we talked about. I think the move can work well and I will continue to experiement with it.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Krishan