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  #1  
Old 01-29-2005, 09:17 PM
William Jockusch William  Jockusch is offline
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Default looking for a bigger edge

Party 10/20 6 max. I have A9o two off the button. Folded to me, I raise, both blinds call.

The flop is 965 rainbow. The small blind leads out. The big blind calls. I call, planning to raise the turn if it is 2, 3, 4, 9, or Ace.
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  #2  
Old 01-29-2005, 09:34 PM
legend42 legend42 is offline
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Default Re: looking for a bigger edge

You want to raise the turn a lot more often than that.
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  #3  
Old 01-29-2005, 10:14 PM
Paluka Paluka is offline
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Default Re: looking for a bigger edge

If you are only raising the turn when those cards fall, you should just raise the flop.
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Old 01-29-2005, 10:26 PM
fsuplayer fsuplayer is offline
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Default Re: looking for a bigger edge

the heads up/short handed forum might give you some real good answers for this one.
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  #5  
Old 01-29-2005, 10:51 PM
Entity Entity is offline
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Default Re: looking for a bigger edge

I think you should raise a lot more hands than that. Your edge here is actually pretty high, but if you're waiting for the turn to raise for value, that's fine. I'm raising the vast majority of turn cards, though -- your idea of "favorable" turn cards is pretty limited. I also like this a lot more when the SB is aggressive.

I think just raising the flop is fine too.

Rob
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  #6  
Old 01-29-2005, 11:02 PM
Peter_rus Peter_rus is offline
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Default Re: looking for a bigger edge

I always raise flop here. Maybe my logic here isn't way good, so any thoughts are welcomed.

Your hand here has reversed implyed odds as well as JJ or AK preflop. Your 'waiting' for turn action is similar to slowplay JJ preflop to look to 'bigger' edge (no overcards or picking set for example on flop).

Majority of cards on turn will decrease the value of your hand (as well as majority of time for your JJ and even AA preflop will decrease it's value after flop). And why let to see 2 opponents next card cheaply when you can be trashed in next card and you're pretty sure you're ahead right now?
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Old 01-29-2005, 11:08 PM
Entity Entity is offline
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Default Re: looking for a bigger edge

[ QUOTE ]
I always raise flop here. Maybe my logic here isn't way good, so any thoughts are welcomed.

Your hand here has reversed implyed odds as well as JJ or AK preflop. Your 'waiting' for turn action is similar to slowplay JJ preflop to look to 'bigger' edge (no overcards or picking set for example on flop).

Majority of cards on turn will decrease the value of your hand (as well as majority of time for your JJ and even AA preflop will decrease it's value after flop). And why let to see 2 opponents next card cheaply when you can be trashed in next card and you're pretty sure you're ahead right now?

[/ QUOTE ]

The majority of turn cards will actually improve hero's equity in this pot, not decrease it. With only one card remaining, less draws have the possibility to come in.

Like I said, I think raising the flop is fine, but the turn card is going to increase hero's equity far more often than it will decrease hero's equity in a 3-way pot.

Rob
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  #8  
Old 01-29-2005, 11:19 PM
Peter_rus Peter_rus is offline
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Default Re: looking for a bigger edge

[ QUOTE ]
but the turn card is going to increase hero's equity far more often than it will decrease hero's equity in a 3-way pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suspect that only 2,9 and A increase value of his hand assuming he doesn't know if they drawing to overcards or to straight or simply have pocket pair. All other cards decrease his valued, cards from T to K as well as 3 and 4 decrease his value a bit (3-5%) and 8 or 7 decrease his value greatly.
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  #9  
Old 01-29-2005, 11:29 PM
Entity Entity is offline
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Default Re: looking for a bigger edge

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but the turn card is going to increase hero's equity far more often than it will decrease hero's equity in a 3-way pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suspect that only 2,9 and A increase value of his hand assuming he doesn't know if they drawing to overcards or to straight or simply have pocket pair. All other cards decrease his valued, cards from T to K as well as 3 and 4 decrease his value a bit (3-5%) and 8 or 7 decrease his value greatly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's my hand ranges: feel free to modify them so I can re-run equity analysis.

SB: A9s, K9s, Q9s, J9s, T9s-T8s, 98s-92s, 87s-85s, 76s-75s, 65s, A9o, K9o, Q9o, J9o, T9o, 87o, 76o-75o, 65o

BB: Just about any two suited (A7s-A2s, K9s-K4s, Q9s-Q4s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s).

Equity on the flop:

Hero - 44.3%
SB - 35.4%
BB - 20.3%

If the turn card is the J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero - 45.81%
SB - 36.438%
BB - 17.746%

If the turn card is the K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero - 48.5%
SB - 36.46%
BB - 15.03%

If the turn card is the Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero - 47.9%
SB - 36.52%
BB - 15.517%

If the turn card is the T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero - 44.3%
SB - 37.98%
BB - 17.68%

If the turn card is the 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero - 28.091%
SB - 46.32%
BB - 25.58%

----------

So in all cases except the 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (which is obviously a bad card), Hero's equity goes up on the turn. I'm not surprised at this at all, actually; his equity isn't likely to get much higher, but it certainly is going up with most turn cards.

An additional benefit which people seem to forget is that if you raise the flop, it is more likely that regardless of the turn card, you will be checked to on the turn; consequently, even when a semi-scary card comes, you are generally going to be betting this card, and checkraised when you are behind.

However, when you call the flop (and the turn is a bad card), BB has no idea what your range of hands is: so the action, rather than going SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB checkraises, will often be SB bets, BB raises, Hero folds...

The second reason is one of the additional reasons I like calling the flop.

Rob
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  #10  
Old 01-29-2005, 11:49 PM
Peter_rus Peter_rus is offline
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Default Re: looking for a bigger edge

Heh, the ranges you posted aren't the same i meant. And don't assume flop action into consideration . I can't see a reason for BB to call with T2 on flop. Also i don't see any small pocket pairs in a list.

Also you pictured some ranges of blind defence hands which i can't accept until you have some reads on blinds (hands they would muck/hands they would call/hands they would raise in blinds). So i would change your conditions to select a pair of hands that consist 'any piece of board'. By any peace of board i mean - any 2 overcards, any pocket pair (ok let's not take into account JJ+ and AKs), any 5x,6x,7x,8x,9x and also even A4s.

Though you're probably right because many cards on turn even if they decrease a value - decrease it a little and maybe it worth to call here and raise turn just because you can collect a bit more chips from guys when you're ahead. Though im still prefer them to fold ther low pocket pairs, inside straights draw and trashy flopped pairs as fast as possible.
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