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  #11  
Old 12-03-2005, 04:16 AM
istewart istewart is offline
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Default Re: Call, call, call

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Aaron,

Nice hand. I think if you raise this river you have to be prepared to fold to a raise. Which is difficult against a complete unknown. Man, I have to work on my flop and turn play after reading this.

[/ QUOTE ]

No way you can fold to a reraise on the river. QJ is a possibility and plus you have an overpair vs. an unknown and have shown no strength.
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  #12  
Old 12-03-2005, 04:17 AM
Aaron W. Aaron W. is offline
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Default Re: Call, call, call

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the turn. Although its likely UTG has a Q and will value bet most rivers, i think there is a good chance he has a PP or maybe even a weak Ace and will freeze up on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason I didn't raise the turn is because that mimics a slowplayed monster. If he has just a weak ace, he's probably not calling the turn raise. If he has a medium pocket pair... I don't know. First hand means no reads and I have no clue what he's doing. However, I do think that many villains can find a turn fold with medium pocket pairs if I raise there. It's just too strong of a move.
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  #13  
Old 12-03-2005, 04:18 AM
istewart istewart is offline
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Default Re: Call, call, call

Hand posted in HUSH awhile back opened my eye to this sort of play and it's something I rarely think to do at the table (although I'm not sure it comes up that often). I like the idea here but I think you definitely have to raise a big street.
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  #14  
Old 12-03-2005, 04:21 AM
deepsquat deepsquat is offline
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Default Re: Call, call, call

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise the turn. Although its likely UTG has a Q and will value bet most rivers, i think there is a good chance he has a PP or maybe even a weak Ace and will freeze up on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]


The reason I didn't raise the turn is because that mimics a slowplayed monster. If he has just a weak ace, he's probably not calling the turn raise. If he has a medium pocket pair... I don't know. First hand means no reads and I have no clue what he's doing. However, I do think that many villains can find a turn fold with medium pocket pairs if I raise there. It's just too strong of a move.

[/ QUOTE ]


Nice point. However I feel we are missing too much value trying to get 1 overcall on the turn here. In my experience, an UTG poster isnt folding too many hands to a turn raise.
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  #15  
Old 12-03-2005, 04:32 AM
tinhat tinhat is offline
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Default Re: Call, call, call

Sorry Aaron, I can't look at this hand without wanting to scream [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

If this was a level a ways beyond goofball/idiot $1/2 I'd like how you played this. But in $1/2 I'm getting my bets in as often as I'm able until I think I'm no good.

I mean at the bare minmum, the rate at which $1/2 players call down just about anything, you (IMM) got LESS bets playing it like this. You could've stuck in a flop raise and had >= 1/2bb extra; turn raise and you have >= 1bb extra.

The guy is going to pay 1 bet/st (usually) anyway; I HAVE to get some extras in there w/this...

Mike
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  #16  
Old 12-03-2005, 04:34 AM
deepsquat deepsquat is offline
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Default Re: Call, call, call

Yeah I really think these plays are better suited for higher limits, value bet and raise the [censored] out of these guys at 1/2.
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  #17  
Old 12-03-2005, 05:01 AM
admiralfluff admiralfluff is offline
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Default Re: Call, call, call

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Aaron,

Nice hand. I think if you raise this river you have to be prepared to fold to a raise. Which is difficult against a complete unknown. Man, I have to work on my flop and turn play after reading this.

[/ QUOTE ]

You cannot fold to a reraise on the river. Unknown at these stakes will have QJ, AQ, any Q more than often enough to pay off. I think the best play is to raise the flop, as I would expect at least one of SB and BB to call a raise often. If you do wait to raise, I think waiting till the river is best once it's HU.
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  #18  
Old 12-03-2005, 05:39 AM
Peter Harris Peter Harris is offline
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Default Re: Call, call, call

i could find a river raise here.
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  #19  
Old 12-03-2005, 07:30 AM
27offsooot 27offsooot is offline
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Default Re: Call, call, call

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah I really think these plays are better suited for higher limits, value bet and raise the [censored] out of these guys at 1/2.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, at 30/60, this is probably an easy flop fold. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Okay, so players acting behind you are getting 10:1 on their flop call with an expectation of (at most) ~ 4 bb on turn and river (u won't be raising a turn ace and u can get out if there's a raise on turn and river at this level safely if an ace falls i believe) if they hit at most their 3 outer. So, let's say 18:1 for a three outer, which is about break even. Now factor in the dumb calls they will will make with J10o and the small pps that will come along and the chance that UTG already has a 3 and their adjusted outs is <3. So they lose by calling and the money goes into your pocket most of the times.

In conclusion, don't raise the flop. Raise the river.
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  #20  
Old 12-03-2005, 07:52 AM
scotty34 scotty34 is offline
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Default Re: Call, call, call

I understand the flop call, but please raise the turn. Charge those flush draws, get another bet out of that Q, hell charge those 1/2 idiots to draw to an A - they'll probably call.

Given that you didn't, why the hell would you call the river. How many unknowns donk trips into a PFR? What else are you afraid of - QJ?
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