I folded quads last night

[benkahuna]

Playing in 6-12 game at California Grand.

The dealer wasn't on top of things at all. No announcement about number of players in the pot.
No announcement about action pending to players.

I was in seat 9 and didn't see that seat 1 was in the hand. Seat 1 had his hand behind the dealers hand and underneath his own hands not visible to me at all. Seat 10, my friend also didn't see that the other guy was still in the hand. He was the button in the hand.

I thought I was betting my flopped set and then my quads on the turn.

I thought seat 8 was just getting into the pot right after me with each of my bets.

Once seat 8 folded on the river, I figured he didn't want to call my raise and that he missed so he would just fold.

I put my cards face down and then dealer pushed the chips to the only live hand in seat 1 about 10 seconds later, much to my surprise.
I didn't realize what had happened until after the dealer pushed the chips to the other guy, some donk that called every pf raise and never folded a hand before the turn the entire time I was the table with him. It was too late to retrieve my cards so I didn't try.

I was disappointed and complained about it to my friend sitting next to me. I asked the dealer to make seat 1 put his hands in a more visible position. All he could say was that it wasn't his fault and that seat 1 was betting the whole way (despite my having said bet on at least one round). While complaining to a friend about the situation and not about the dealer, the dealer interrupted me to tell me it wasn't his fault. I told him I knew and told him not to talk to me about it. The guy wouldn't even let me blow off some steam about such a horrible situation. He wised up finally (after interrupting me about the 5th time) realizing that he wasn't ever going to get me to back down and not complain and said it was over. I was like, yeah like I said that about 5 times. It's not about you ya dumb dealer. I complained a little more about it to my friend who was a little bewildered by the evil, angry person I'd become by the dealer continuing to try to argue with me when I wasn't even talking to him (or even loudly to the table as a whole).

It seems like dealers have a major problem admitting that they ever made a mistake. Perhaps they're easily fired. This dealer was defensive even when I wasn't trying to say he made a mistake. I saw a dealer blow a pot at the ME with Men the Master and he wouldn't admit making a mistake either.

Horrible situation, but very good to learn that brutal lesson at that limit about making sure who's in the hand.

I had that dealer at a later table and he still sucked, getting distracted from dealing due to commotion at another table. Someone at our table had to tell him to pay attention to our game and not to the commotion. He had trouble dealing with the chips, following the action and didn't do the little things to keep the game going like verbally declaring the number of players seeing the flop, action to a player or saying time when a player started thinking about how to act.

What do you guys think about this situation?

Obviously my complaint was partly born from bitchiness, but was my request to have Seat 1's hand more visible in the future out of line? A club doesn't want this situation to occur, do they?
Should I expect a dealer to hear what I say when I verbally declare my action? Should I expect the dealer to say how many people are seeing the flop and on betting rounds thereafter? How about if I make the request that they do that? Should I expect the dealer to apologize for helping me accidentally fold quads (without admitting dealer was at all to blame)? I know that I would.

It doesn't really matter (because I'm going to anyway), but I should I complain to the cardroom about the dealer? My problem is that he kept trying to argue with me when I wasn't talking with him or about him.

FWIW, I'm a very alert player, even with a set or quads and this is the first time I've ever made the mistake of folding when someone else was still in the hand. I've also never called bets on the flop and turn when I thought I was betting myself.

[drewjustdrew]

Seems like dealers face a lot of abrasive people during the course of work and can get very sensitive about it.

I don't think your request was out of line. The dealer needs some thicker skin.

I never release my cards until the chips are moving my way. Much like a catcher tagging a batter on strike 3 when the ball MAY have hit the ground. Better safe than sorry.

[MicroBob]

Dealer may have been bad...but he still had to scoop the chips from seat 1 into the pot.

And you yourself said that this guy was donk who was staying in every hand....so i'm not sure how he became suddenly so inconspicuous.

Of course, players should keep their cards positioned so they are visible to all players and it's a HUGE pet-peeve of mine when they don't do this.
But the guy was putting chips out in front of him and you just didn't see it.
Obviously SOME blame is on you.

[TripleH68]

MicroBob,

I have wondered about dealers declaring the number of players in a hand.
Should this be expected or is this just a courtesy done by some dealers?

Thanks, H.

[IceKing]

You didnt see his cards, but you should have seeen his chips going in to pot. Maybe you should pay a little more attention. This was a good lesson, dont give your cards away before the pot is pushed to you.

Maybe the dealer made a mistake, but so did you. Accept what happend and move on. Whining about it doesnt change anything, learnign from it does.

[MicroBob]

My B&M poker experience is too limited to know for sure.

I've had some dealers who do this...while others obviously do not.

Randy or AlCapone or someone else will certainly know the answer.

[benkahuna]

[ QUOTE ]
You didnt see his cards, but you should have seeen his chips going in to pot. Maybe you should pay a little more attention. This was a good lesson, dont give your cards away before the pot is pushed to you.

Maybe the dealer made a mistake, but so did you. Accept what happend and move on. Whining about it doesnt change anything, learnign from it does.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've moved on and accepted my mistake. Perhaps that wasn't clear. I take responsibility for not paying good enough attention and I implied I learned from the experience. The player just put the chips in front of him and I couldn't see them past the dealer's hand. The dealer then was moving the chips in the pot in one motion along with putting another card out. I was deliberately not watching the card so as not to give out information. The pot and the muck were very close to the player in seat 1. You're right that I should have seen the chips. It's a further point of limited importance, however, as I've already conceded that I blew it.

Perhaps it's just the hypercritical nature of these boards, but is anyone going to answer the questions I asked rather than tell me what I've already conceded? My questions are about learning what to expect from dealers and working to do everything I can to avoid this type of mistake in the future. If you guys are interested in helping others learn rather than assigning blame (99 percent mine), it would really be cool if you'd answer some questions.

At no point was this post intended to be a whine. I got the whining out of my system about 2 minutes after the hand was over. I laid out the scene so you could decide what to think about the dealer and to explain why I'm so interested in getting my questions answered.

I realize it's a lengthy original post so I can understand if you all just skimmed it rather than reading the whole thing.

[benkahuna]

[ QUOTE ]
MicroBob,

I have wondered about dealers declaring the number of players in a hand.
Should this be expected or is this just a courtesy done by some dealers?

Thanks, H.

[/ QUOTE ]

Triple, I don't know for sure, but my B&M experience suggests that it's a courtesy since it's never the case that all dealers at a cardroom will do this (not in Reno, Emeryville, San Jose, Pacheco, or San Pablo, Vegas). If they don't do it on request, I don't see withholding tips as unreasonable, however. I think the dealers job is not just to get the cards out there, but to run an efficient game where player intention becomes reality as much as possible following cardroom rules.

[pudley4]

[edit]removed.

If you have a problem with the dealer, talk to the dealer about it; don't just sit there and criticize him to your friend - that's weak.

Don't argue with the dealer, just tell him what you thought was wrong. If he continues on with it, then go to the floor and talk about what happened and complain that the dealer won't let it drop.

Also, it's not the dealer's responsibility to let you know how many people are in the pot. If you want to know, just ask. Expecting him to always tell/remind you how many players are in the pot is unreasonable.

[IceKing]

Some dealers announce how many players see the flop, some dont. I think its good thing to do, but I also think its not that bad not to do it. After the flop its players responsibility to know whos in and whos not.

A good dealer talks - a bad one talks too much or not at all. Telling players everything that happens at the table is just too much, but not announcing anything is just lazy. Ofcourse dealer in table with 6 pros can just shut up. Good dealer can read the game and talks just that much.