Why charts don't suck, or: Jeet Kune Do and poker

[deception5]

I agree that charts are helpful when getting started. Generally anyone who starts without one finds themselves getting involved in too many pots they shouldn't be by doing things like limping Kxs UTG and raising marginal hands too early. There's no question that a chart is a useful tool.

The problem as you allude to in your post is that no chart can cover "optimal preflop play" if there even is such a thing. The more you play the more you realize that preflop is just another street - part of an overall strategy for playing a particular hand at a particular table. Sometimes it makes sense to just call with AK preflop because you know your opponents are way too aggressive when they hit an ace if no one has raised preflop where they will give up early if an ace flops after a preflop raise. On some tables you can open raise 44 from the hijack and on some tables it's a fold from the button.

Charts don't take into account whether the other players are loose or tight. They can't possibly realize that the player on your left has raised the last 6 pots and they certainly don't help much with your play in the blinds as 2 different players can have 2 completely different raising standards on the button. If you've raised the last 6 hands, it may make sense to fold a marginal hand which you'd normally raise with as you'll get played back at far more often than normal.

I agree that we shouldn't splash around at random trying to figure out a strategy and that these charts can be useful tools when getting started. Just realize that the difference between raising and calling or even folding in many situations is extremely close and what is far more important is your plan for playing the rest of the hand and your reads on the other players. Trying different strategies preflop will make you a better player in the long run as you'll be thinking more about why you should raise or call rather than blindly following a chart. In my opinion there's nothing worse than reading a response to a post which states "you need to raise this preflop because SSH says this is a raise from that position".

Despite my post about the weaknesses in the SSHe starting hand chart this morning, I'm certain preflop charts have helped me to play far better as a beginner than I ever could have without them.

But are there also tools that are harmful for beginners? I suggest HUDs like PokerAce. Let me say right off that I mean no harm to the guy who does PokerAce: it's a terrific product in terms of how well it works and it's very reasonably priced. I'm a Windows programmer in my day job and I have great respect for what he's done: nice piece of work.

But recently I stopped using it and started playing 1 or at most 2 tables and carefully keeping track of people's actions (using my brain and an old-fashioned pencil and paper). I think it's made me a better player. If nothing else, it causes me to think about other player's behavior all the time, rather than just glancing up and looking at the little numbers.

Should beginners avoid HUD products for a while? What do other people think?

[ZenMusician]

Relying on stats, particularly low sample
stats, has become the downfall of many
otherwise good players (never mind
beginners).

ABC poker is boring and predictable...but VERY
profitable at LLHE. Charts are teh g00t.

-ZEN

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
Should beginners avoid HUD products for a while? What do other people think?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think one or two tabling combined with using a HUD will not harm beginning players. I don't think new players should (generally) play more than two tables either way. I'm agnostic about new players using HUDs or not. I didn't use them when I first started, but HUDs did not exist then.

So, while I don't think yr argument is stupid or anything, I'm not sure I agree. I do think new players should be congizant of trying to isolate true tendencies, and not overly rely on stats.

I like the charts for the beginner. They helped me and as I think SSHE says somewhere, The charts will lessen the number of times one is faced with tough post flop decision. It won't eliminate them altogether, but it helps. For a beginner playing after the flop is harder to learn and takes more time. But, after playing, studying, posting, and grunching here on the boards, one should have a better idea of the reasoning behind the chart. At that point, their usefulness declines.

I like your post if you keep in mind that most micro-limit players are really bad at poker. Find the best available method to let them make -EV decisions and you will benefit over the long run.

[Greg J]

This is a damn good post. I am adding it to my favorites to link to newbs when discussion of this comes up (which it does often).

Sw: thanks for a valuable contribution. I have thought in my own mind something along these lines, and tried to explain it, but I never manged to do so either so consicely or articulately. Again, damn fine post.

Greg

[Greg J]

This is a great post. You guys should read it.