God is Love

[NotReady]

For some time now I have been engaged in various debates of a theological nature, mostly on the Psychology forum. The central issues were generally those which involve logic, reason, evolution, meaning, purpose and similar concepts. I believe fervently in the things I presented there, and no doubt will gladly make the same arguments where appropriate in the future.

However, I've recently been reflecting on these discussions and I feel convinced that something important has been ignored in all the controversy. So I'm going to discourse on that briefly, then I expect to withdraw from the fray for awhile. I will certainly be glad to answer PM's if anyone is interested, but I can't think of anything I have to add publicly to what I've already said concerning these matters, and I see nothing productive in repeating myself. In all honesty, I can't think of any arguments I haven't made or any objections or questions I haven't responded to, adequately or not.

What's been missing and what I feel most strongly about can best be expressed by a Bible verse.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

What I want to talk about now is love, God's love as revealed in Scripture.

1 John 4:
8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

Many of you may not believe me when I tell you I really don't think I know everything, or for that matter, that I know very much at all. But of all the mysteries that exist for me in the universe, by far and away without comparison is the mystery of love. I know what love is, I believe I may have a drop or two of love in me(by God's grace), but I do not begin to understand it - and God's love for us is the mystery of mysteries.

Some of you have asked what is the difference between Christianity and other religions, or the Bible and other writings which claim inspiration. I know of no other text that even comes close to expressing God's love for man like the Bible, or that demands of Christians such a high standard of love for others. That difference alone is so enormous all the other distinguishing characteristics of Christianity combined do not equal it.

I like knowledge as much as anyone, and the Bible teaches us to pursue wisdom and knowledge. But listen to Paul on the subject of knowledge:

1 Corinthians 13:

1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

13But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

1 Corinthians 8:1
Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies.

All the words I can speak, and all the reasoning and arguments I can make, are shallow and weak compared to what Jesus said at the Last Supper:

John 13:

34"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

The church has failed in this throughout the centuries since these words were spoken, to our shame. I have failed in this more than I like to think. But the one great, common thread throughout the Bible is love, God's love for us, His commandment that we love Him, and that we love one another. Humans fail completely in this obligation of love, but God's love for us never fails.

So I haven't communicated this in the heat of debate. No doubt I get too involved in the logic of the argument as well. I know that my words will never persuade anyone, I have no power of my own. But my testimony is that God does love, and He will unfailingly reveal that to any who will know.

[TStoneMBD]

excellent post.

id like to add in that it has been the fault of the churches along with mankind that hinder the understanding that god is love. most people do not base their understanding of the bible on its actual text, but the ties that have been strung along by a corrupt church. most people think that they have christianity summed up, but they only have the flaws of men understood. if the inquisitive decide to read biblical text without maintaining the predisposition of church cliches and keep an openmind, they will see that the god of christianity is far different than they have originally perceived.

[AnyTwoCanLose]

Which explains a lot. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[David Sklansky]

The God of Sklanskyanity loves too. In fact it is unconditional love. All he wants is that the conscious beings he knew would one day evolve here, and elsewhere, be (as a whole) happy. ("Happy" is of course too trivial a word). He doesn't care if you believe in him unless you need to believe to behave in a way that will get you to take the non selfish choice in Prisoner Dillemma and similar situations.

[TStoneMBD]

david, you have been a walking sideshow lately. i dont know whats gotten into you.

[PairTheBoard]

Great post NotReady.

"1 John 4:
8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love."

I think where harsh arrogant Christian prosylatyzers miss the boat, and thereby drive people away from a religion they are suppose to be attracting to it, is that the converse of this is also true. Those who Love, Know God. I believe this is supported by scripture. For example when Jesus said that those who are not for him are against him and those who are not against him are for him. Also, when asked by his disciples if Simon the Magician who was preaching in favor of Chirst was ok even though he wasn't one of them and probably wasn't doing it right, Jesus gave the thumbs up to Simon. Also when he said, you will know my followers by their fruits. The fruits he was talking about were acts of Love.

This makes Christianity a very accessable religion because nearly everyone has experienced some kind of Love in their life if only the love of their Mother. The mission of Jesus was to inspire people to make Love their vocation in Life, to follow his example.

The Religious theology that subsequently developed was in an effort to keep people focused on that Good News, that Love triumphs over the ways of the world. Thus the Myth of the Resurection. They needed to speak with authority so they spoke with the authority they gave to Jesus. Thus the Myth of the Son of God. Who can speak with authority for a family in place of the Father? The Son of course. Everybody understood this kind of language at that time. To further emphasize the purity of Jesus' message they developed the Myth of the Virgin Birth. The Gospel of Love was unspoiled by base motivations of men. This mythological language was common at the time and easily understood. People were immersed in mystisism at that time. It's how they understood their world.

But too many Christians today have turned the Gospel of Love upsidedown. They have turned a Religion based on Love into a Religion based on Literal versions of Myths. They have become like the Pharasees who Jesus preached Most Vigorously Against, Laying the Burden of these Myths on people like the Pharasees lay burdens of ritual on the Jews of that time.

The Dogma of Jesus as a Sacrifice to God for our sins was developed to End the Culture of Sacrifice to the gods or God that was prevalent at that time. It was meant to focus people on the Gospel of Love, that to follow Jesus meant a Life Vocation of Love, to sacrifice your Life to Love, so to speak, rather than making blood sacrifices to God. Blood sacrifices were to be abadoned. The blood of Jesus sufficed.

It is because of his Gospel of Love that Jesus continues to touch so many hearts and draw people to his cause. The message and spirit and Love of Jesus, his Life does live on and thus the Ressurection is meaningful. But Jesus would be turning over in his unmarked grave if he could see how in this modern era the Myths and Dogams of the past are being Arrogantly and Unlovingly Erected as barriers between Himself and people still desperate for a message of Love.

Thus those who know Love and do not reject it but live and encourage it, Know God, Know Jesus, and are BLESSED not condemned to hell for failing to bow down to the Idols of Dogma and Myth. Those who know Love and reject it, living hateful lives reap the hellishness of that hate as they live. Just as the "Kingdom of Heaven is upon us" as Jesus said, the hellishness of hate is upon those who make that choice in their life. What a shame if they never get a chance to be touched by the Gospel of Love because all they ever hear about it are indigestable Myths and Dogmas.

PairTheBoard

[TStoneMBD]

wait so to sum things up, you think that acts of documented supernatural in the new testiment is all myth created by the disciples or by the church impersonating disciples? you think that jesus was just a normal man who wanted people to love one another and that's it?

[PairTheBoard]

I believe in miracles produced by the power of Love. If you require more believe what you want. But don't burden others with it. Yes, that's it. And it's more than enough.

PairTheBoard

[TStoneMBD]

so then what is your answer for how the disciples wrote about jesus being the son of god, the savior, afterlife and all that stuff that you apparently believe is hogwash? were the disciples liars or was it the church? from what i understand, these letters from the disciples have to be legitimate because if the church faked them there would be an uproar since they were documented during the age in which the disciples were still alive. so what is their motive?

[SamIAm]

[ QUOTE ]
so then what is your answer for how the disciples wrote about jesus being the son of god, the savior, afterlife and all that stuff that you apparently believe is hogwash? ... so what is their motive?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure I understand your point. They were his disciples. They wrote down that they thought he was holy in a book. I agree that The Desciples wrote that Jesus was holy in a historically documented text, but there are desciples of OTHER people writing today that THEY're holy. (That's what disciples are for.) I don't think finding a friend to attest automatically makes you holy. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

In general, I'm not a fan of people using Holy Texts to prove to me that their texts are holy. It's begging the question. "I know the bible is right because the bible told me so." Still, the OP was polite, reasonable, and seemed focus on personal experiences & testiment, which is fine by me.

-Sam

EDIT: Happy birthday. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]