I think I should quit (long) - Page 4

Dominic · #31 07-20-2004, 01:30 AM

I'm not saying you don't push if you get re-raised, but in the first few hands of a SNG, where the blinds + a couple of limpers may get you $35 - $40 in chips, why just push? Don't you want to extract as many chips as possible from someone with AQ, Ax, KQ JJ, whatever? You know you're going to get called by all of those hands and you will get re-raised all of the time by QQ, KK and probably AK...say AQ doesn't hit on the flop - you bet, he folds, you've collected chips from him you wouldn't have if you had pushed pre-flop. Or, he hits his Q and then you're probably going to get most if not all of his chips.

Pushing pre-flop with AA or KK is asinine in the early stages of a tourney or SNG...not only are you putting all of your chips at risk for a very small return, you're pushing out hands that will call a raise pre-flop.

You tell me, which is better? Isn't it the aim of every player to extract as many chips from their opponents as possible? The goal isn't to "win pots."

Be agressive with your great starting hands, but don't shut them out of collecting chips before it even has a chance.

Hood · #32 07-20-2004, 05:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying you don't push if you get re-raised, but in the first few hands of a SNG, where the blinds + a couple of limpers may get you $35 - $40 in chips, why just push? Don't you want to extract as many chips as possible from someone with AQ, Ax, KQ JJ, whatever? You know you're going to get called by all of those hands and you will get re-raised all of the time by QQ, KK and probably AK...say AQ doesn't hit on the flop - you bet, he folds, you've collected chips from him you wouldn't have if you had pushed pre-flop. Or, he hits his Q and then you're probably going to get most if not all of his chips.

Pushing pre-flop with AA or KK is asinine in the early stages of a tourney or SNG...not only are you putting all of your chips at risk for a very small return, you're pushing out hands that will call a raise pre-flop.

You tell me, which is better? Isn't it the aim of every player to extract as many chips from their opponents as possible? The goal isn't to "win pots."

Be agressive with your great starting hands, but don't shut them out of collecting chips before it even has a chance.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think perhaps I misunderstood your post, by taking it out of context of the thread.

slogger · #33 07-20-2004, 10:44 AM

You say this is not a bad beat post, but you listed a series of hand in which you simply got unlucky. These things happen all the time and while it pays to learn how to recognize these situations every now and then (you're never going to escape from all of them), the important thing is to play thinking, solid poker.

I don't think that your play is all that LAG, as some have said. Rather, I think you suffer from something that plagued my game for quite some time. You seem to be afraid of getting sucked out on whenever you've got a big hand and so you just push all your chips in at a very early stage.

Early in a SnG, I think it's important to think about the size of each bet you make, and not just push all in because you think you have the best hand and you don't want people to draw. There are times (depending on your stack size and that of your opponent) when it is better to make about a pot sized bet on the flop and then push on the turn when draw doesn't come. As long as you measure these bets properly, many players will call off a nice chunk of chips on the flop, but then fold to a big all-in on the turn when their draw doesn't get there.

Also, don't be a caller of big bets. The JJ hand may have been tough to get away from, but over time, you will begin to see patterns in how people play big pairs, flopped sets, etc., and you will find that even again crazy 10+1 players, it is sometimes correct to fold what you think could easily be the best hand and wait for a better situation.

There are those on these boards who will tell you that you must not fold good hands to players at the lower level SnGs. While I believe there is a kernel of truth in that advice on a general level, I also believe there are individual situations (particularly early in a SnG), where you just wait for a more favorable spot.

These things are never decided during the first three rounds of play. In fact, I'm almost always shortstacked with 5-7 players remaining (holding between 400 and 700 chips). It is at this stage (50-100 blinds) that should try to make your move and play a little LAG. But it should almost always be with pre-flop all-ins when you are first in, preferably against BBs with medium stacks who have shown an ability to fold their blind.

I think your ROI will improve the more you play, especially if you devote real time to these games. I am a 3/6 to 6/12 limit player myself, but online I have found a much more stable (lower variance) source of poker income in the low level SnGs than I could ever get from online 3/6 or 5/10 play.

Whatever you decide to do, I hope it works out for the best. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

NotReady · #34 07-20-2004, 11:09 AM

Great post, very good observations. I didn't mean it as a bad beat post in the sense I wasn't looking for sympathy, but some evaluation of my play as well as how normal to get this number of beats in such a short span.

What level of SnGs do you play to equal your former income from limit play? I would like to have SnGs first as a variation from grinding at limit, and second as a reliable backup should the limit games I play dry up.

mackthefork · #35 07-20-2004, 11:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Rather, I think you suffer from something that plagued my game for quite some time. You seem to be afraid of getting sucked out on whenever you've got a big hand and so you just push all your chips in at a very early stage.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say that is what I am doing at the moment, would you say it was a form of tilt?

Regards ML

NotReady · #36 07-20-2004, 11:15 AM

I think he's right, but for me it's not tilt. I think it's more a lack of understanding of NL poker. I'm fairly new to both SnG and NL, and pushing is just easier than thinking, espcially when you are uncertain of correct play.

mackthefork · #37 07-20-2004, 11:30 AM

I have had massive problems with KK QQ and JJ in particular, I lack confidence in my judgements and find opponents moves sometimes incredulous, I tend to make a strong preflop play and find it hard to play when over cards hit. I end up pushing with these a lot now so I don't have to put them down, my game is broken.

Regards ML