I think I should quit (long)

NotReady · #1 07-17-2004, 08:27 PM

My regular game is 1/2 6 max and sometimes 2/4 and 3/6 full, Party and others, and my win rate for the past 6000 table hours is about 3.5 BB/100. I decided to try SnG's a few weeks ago and at first did pretty well. For the last 2 weeks I've been sliding badly, and though I have a few 5+1's and 20+2's, mostly I've played 10+1's on Party. Current numbers for the 10's are
Tourneys 143
ITM 34%
ROI 14.12%
1st 15 or 10.64%
2nd 16 or 11.35%
3rd 37 or 19.15 %

A few weeks ago I posted 5 hands and got some responses that since then I have decided were not the best advice. I think I did ok on 4 of the 5, and the one I played wrong I no longer play that way.

The past 2 days have been especially brutal, and below are 7 hands where I've been knocked out at the first level. I'm not posting these to show how bad I'm getting beat, because that would require about 30 more posts showing all my 4ths and 3rds. I have two questions. Please evaluate my play on these hands, and tell me if my current results indicate I can't play SnG's, even at the 10+1 level. At this time I have lost all interest in pusuing tourneys, since I win fairly well at limit ring games - they were just a diversion, but they're becoming an expenseive one.
Thanks for any input.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed)

UTG+1 (t830)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t680)
MP2 (t755)
MP3 (t725)
CO (t1160)
Button (t665)
SB (t785)
Hero (t800)
UTG (t800)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to t30, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls t30, CO folds, Button folds, SB raises to t150, Hero raises to t800 (All-In), UTG+1 folds, MP3 folds, SB calls t635 (All-In).

Flop: (t1645) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: (t1645) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t1645) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: t1645

Results: SB has KK 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed)

UTG+1 (t995)
UTG+2 (t715)
MP1 (t825)
MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t785)
CO (t775)
Button (t775)
Hero (t770)
BB (t800)
UTG (t760)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls t15, MP2 calls t15, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls t15, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t75) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets t35, BB raises to t150, MP1 calls t150, MP2 folds, Button folds, Hero raises to t755 (All-In), BB raises to t785 (All-In), MP1 calls t635.

Turn: (t2400) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t2400) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: t2400

Results : BB has Ks2s 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (8 handed)

BB (t500)
UTG (t1165)
UTG+1 (t1490)
MP1 (t1255)
MP2 (t915)
CO (t595)
Hero (t670)
SB (t1410)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls t100, MP2 folds, CO calls t100, Hero raises to t670 (All-In), SB folds, BB folds, MP1 folds, CO calls t495 (All-In).

Flop: (t1515) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: (t1515) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t1515) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: t1515

Result: CO has 88 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed)

MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t890)
CO (t770)
Button (t785)
SB (t770)
BB (t800)
Hero (t800)
UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t785)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero calls t15, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises to t90, MP1 folds, MP2 calls t90, MP3 folds, CO calls t90, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, Hero calls t75.

Flop: (t385) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 bets t710 (All-In), MP2 folds, CO folds, Hero calls t710 (All-In).

Turn: (t1805) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t1805) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: t1805

Results: UTG+2 has QQ 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (8 handed)

BB (t735)
UTG (t785)
UTG+1 (t2440)
MP1 (t655)
MP2 (t785)
CO (t865)
Hero (t770)
SB (t965)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls t15, UTG+1 calls t15, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO raises to t45, Hero raises to t125, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t110, CO calls t80.

Flop: (t415) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, CO bets t150, Hero raises to t645 (All-In), UTG+1 folds, CO calls t495.

Turn: (t1705) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t1705) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t1705

Results : CO has KsJs

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (9 handed)

BB (t740)
UTG (t555)
Hero (t830)
MP1 (t985)
MP2 (t635)
MP3 (t815)
CO (t705)
Button (t1610)
SB (t1125)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls t15, Hero raises to t120, MP1 calls t120, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds.

Flop: (t280) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t280, MP1 calls t280.

Turn: (t840) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets t250, Hero calls t250.

River: (t1340) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets t200, Hero calls t180 (All-In).

Final Pot: t1720

Results: MP1 has AhJh

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed)

CO (t680)
Button (t860)
SB (t870)
BB (t800)
UTG (t630)
UTG+1 (t1195)
Hero (t785)
MP1 (t720)
MP2 (t685)
MP3 (t775)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls t15, UTG+1 calls t15, Hero raises to t95, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t80.

Flop: (t230) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets t690 (All-In), UTG+1 calls t690.

Turn: (t1610) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t1610) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t1610

Results: UTG+1 has Kh6h

drdre2001mm · #2 07-17-2004, 08:41 PM

Ok in almost everyone of those hands you played like a fool pushing all in and then simply getting dominated by much stronger hands. Maybe if someone raises you you shouldn't automatically push all in when you could simply be beat. Try to play a little less like a maniac.

DiamondAce · #3 07-17-2004, 08:48 PM

I disagree. I think you played most of them the right way. You were bound to lose everything in most of the hands. This is 10+1 level, so you can't assume that an opponent has a great hand everytime he calls a pre-flop bet. If you keep playing like this, your ROI will eventually go up.

The only problem I see is that you have too many 3rd place finishes. Maybe you should work on your shorthanded game.

NotReady · #4 07-17-2004, 08:50 PM

I appreciate the reply, it's what I wanted to hear. I'll never understand SnG's, tourneys or NL poker, think I'll just stick to limit.
Appreciate it.

NotReady · #5 07-17-2004, 08:52 PM

Well, OK, maybe I don't stink. OK, maybe I'll try again. Nah, still don't get it.

edge · #6 07-17-2004, 08:56 PM

The Jacks hand is the only one that looks horrendously played. I'd play a lot of those hands the same, but then, I've been having a really bad run recently too. I'm having a lot of trouble adjusting to Party's structure, where if you make one mistake or one badly aimed bluff in the later rounds, you're out.

ddubois · #7 07-17-2004, 10:53 PM

I agree. Many of these are stadnard, most are fine, and only the JJ one looks bad.

Cosimo · #8 07-17-2004, 11:13 PM

QQ vs KK, JJ vs QQ: rare, but it happens.

Flush to bigger flush: rare, but it happens.

AQs vs 88: coin flip.

QQ vs KJs: coin flip, but he's actually slightly ahead of you. He's got two shots at 14 outs.

QQ vs AJs: coin flip. 53.74% to 46.26%.

AA vs K6s: only 2-1.

joker1976 · #9 07-17-2004, 11:16 PM

Mostly are bad luck, JJ hand should be folded preflop or on the flop. Luck dominates short run result, what you are getting now really doesn't mean much.

NotReady · #10 07-17-2004, 11:18 PM

OK, I'm all better now. Yes, it was something of a rant, needed to let off some steam. I still think I'm done with tourneys, but at least I will depart rationally. Thanks for the replies.

Against the one in a million chance I will actually play a SnG again, I would like to explain the JJ hand, which seems to be the only one I truly mangled according to the replies. I'm not sure why it drew so much attention and I guess the fact I don't see why it was played so bad says something about my lack of understanding of SnG play.

From Aleo Magus:
[ QUOTE ]

So, in the 1-3 rounds, play only the following in positions 1-7:

22-JJ (limp in, cold call min raises only and maybe not with small pairs 22-66)

PRE-FLOP STRATEGY

LEVELS 1-3

EARLY POSITION (Seats 1-7), play only a pair or AK 1. With JJ or lower, limp in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was the mistake calling the raise because it wan't a min raise? There were 2 cold callers between, so I have good implied odds. Or, was the mistake calling the push by UTG+2? If so, what about QQ,KK or AA? I'm not claiming I played it correctly, just asking what the specific mistake was and how to avoid in the unlikely future.

BTW, I don't follow AM mechanically, but do so pretty close (but looser, especially in late position) the first 3 levels.