PLO8, playing draws on the turn

emptyshell · #1 08-01-2005, 03:49 PM

I'm still having trouble knowing when to holdem or foldem on the turn. Tell me which of the following hands seem correct to you...

Hand #1

v1 is aggressive but not crazy. The flop bet could be a low draw semibluff, but most likely he has some decent high based on his turn bet.

$400 PL Omaha Hi/Lo
folder4 ( $226.80 ), Hero ( $421 ), v1 ( $533.85 ),
folder1 ( $294.80 ), folder5 ( $0 ), folder2 ( $249.72 ),
folder3 ( $400 )

Dealt to Hero [ T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ]

v1 posts small blind [$2].
folder2 posts big blind [$4].
folder3 posts big blind [$4].
folder1 calls [$4], folder4 folds, folder3 checks,
Hero raises [$22], v1 calls [$20], folder2 folds,
folder1 folds, folder3 folds

FLOP: (53.20) [ 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ]
v1 bets [$53.20], Hero calls [$53.20]

TURN: (159.40) [ Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ]
v1 bets [$159.40], Hero calls [$159.40]

Results in white below:


RIVER: (478.20) [ Jh ]
v1 is all-In [$299.25]
Hero folds

v1 does not show cards.

v1 wins $777.45



Hand #2

v1 is an aggressive player who frequently goes allin with two pair or a non-nut flush.

$400 PL Omaha Hi/Lo
f1 ( $142.05 ), v1 ( $1149.04 ),
f2 ( $976.45 ), f3 ( $503.10 ), f4 ( $665.10 ),
f5 ( $523.50 ), v2 ( $179.39 ), f6 ( $392 ), Hero ($414.30 ),
f7 ( $121 )

Hero is MP1 with [ Qc Ad Td 4c ]

f1 posts small blind [$2].
v1 posts big blind [$4].
2 folds, f3 calls [$4], Hero calls [$4], 2 folds, v2
raises [$22], 1 fold, v1 calls [$18], f3 calls [$18],
Hero calls [$18]

FLOP: (87.00) [ 3h, Js, 2h ]
v1 checks, f3 checks, Hero checks, v2 checks

TURN: (87.00) [ 9c ]
v1 bets [$87], f3 folds, Hero calls [$87], v2 is
all-In [$157.39], v1 calls [$70.39], Hero calls [$70.39]

Results in white below:


RIVER: (559.17) [ 8c ]
v1 bets [$559.17], Hero is all-In [$234.91]

v1 shows [ 2c, 6c, 4d, 2d ] three of a kind, twos.
v1 shows 8,6,4,3,2 for low.
Hero shows [ Qc, Ad, Td, 4c ] a straight, eight to queen.
Hero shows 8,4,3,2,A for low.
v2 shows [ As, 9d, 4s, 6s ] a pair of nines.
v2 shows 8,4,3,2,A for low.

v1 wins $162.13 from side pot #2 with three of a kind, twos.
v1 wins Lo ($162.13) from side pot #2 with 8,6,4,3,2.
Hero wins $234.91 from side pot #1 with a straight, eight to queen.
Hero wins Lo ($234.91) from side pot #1 with 8,4,3,2,A.
Hero wins $279.59 from the main pot with a straight, eight to queen.
v2 wins Lo ($139.79) from the main pot with 8,4,3,2,A.
Hero wins Lo ($139.79) from the main pot with 8,4,3,2,A.



Hand #3

$400 PL Omaha Hi/Lo
folder1 ( $407 ), folder4 ( $533.88 ), folder2 ( $1009.02 ),
folder6 ( $229.77 ), folder3 ( $503.35 ), v2 ( $396 ),
folder7 ( $400 ), Hero ( $400 ), folder5 ( $654.60 )

Dealt to Hero [ 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ]

folder1 posts small blind [$2].
Hero posts big blind [$4].
folder4 calls [$4], folder2 calls [$4], folder6 folds,
folder3 calls [$4], v2 calls [$4], folder7 folds,
folder5 calls [$4], folder1 calls [$2], Hero checks

FLOP: (26.60) [ Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ]
folder1 checks, Hero checks, folder4 checks, folder2 checks,
folder3 checks, v2 bets [$25], folder5 folds, folder1 folds,
Hero calls [$25], folder4 folds, folder2 folds, folder3 folds

TURN: (75.00) [ 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ]
Hero checks, v2 bets [$75], Hero calls [$75]

Results in white below:


RIVER: (225.00) [ Kd ]
Hero checks, v2 bets [$55], Hero calls [$55]

v2 shows [ 3d, Kh, Ks, 8c ] four of a kind, kings.
Hero doesn't show [ 2c, Ah, 7c, 7h ] a full house, Sevens full of kings.

v2 wins $335 from the main pot with four of a kind, kings.
There was no qualifying low hand.



Hand #4

v1 is a very loose-aggressive player with a win-rate higher than mine.

$400 PL Omaha Hi/Lo
folder1 ( $486 ), folder2 ( $405.10 ), folder6 ( $457 ),
folder7 ( $185.45 ), Hero ( $603.30 ), folder3 ( $278.50 ),
folder8 ( $323 ), folder5 ( $227.50 ), v1 ( $401.50 ),
folder4 ( $273 )

Dealt to Hero [ A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ]

folder8 posts small blind [$2].
folder5 posts big blind [$4].
Hero raises [$10], v1 calls [$10], folder1 folds,
folder2 folds, folder4 folds, folder6 folds, folder7 folds,
folder3 folds, folder8 folds, folder5 folds

FLOP: (24.70) [ 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ]
Hero bets [$24.70], v1 calls [$24.70]

TURN: (72.40) [ T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ]
Hero bets [$72.40]

Results in white below:


v1 raises [$289.60], Hero folds

v1 does not show cards.

v1 wins $434.40

Wintermute · #2 08-01-2005, 04:32 PM

I'd recommend taking a more aggressive line on the flop in hand 1, then I'm getting everything in on the turn (or flop if he plays back).

Hand 2 looks fine.

Hand 3, against a random opponent, I'd raise the max on the turn. I hate bottom set in a full ring game, though.

Hand 4, I would strongly consider a check-call if I respect the opponent, which it sounds like you do.

Wintermute · #3 08-01-2005, 11:24 PM

bump for what should be a good thread

AnyAce · #4 08-02-2005, 09:03 AM

I generally agree with Wintermute's comments. It sees to me like you are calling too much, telling your opponents that you are drawing, where raising in some cases may get them to back off or fold.

On hand 1 you have top pair (albeit not a great pair) and nut low draw. I'd raise max. By calling you are saying you are on a low draw. A follow through raise on the flop might make your opp give you credit for AA2x and let go. When you flat call flop it's easy for opponent to keep pressure when low misses on turn.

Hand 2 was good.

Hand 3 I'd bet the turn or raise the max with baby set and nut low draw. Sometimes quads happen. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Hand 4 again it seems like you are letting opponent take control and forcing you to react. I would definitely check call as you still are in good position with nut low draw and top pair going to river.

Of course, this is easier said than done as you may wind up getting stacked off in all 3 hands where I think more aggression is warranted if opp has the goods.

AA

gergery · #5 08-02-2005, 11:04 AM

hand 1: I raise the flop. If you make it to the turn and he jams like that then tough spot and i can make argument for both call and jam depending on what fold equity you think you have

hand 2: fine

hand 3: i check-call the turn also. KK/QQ are played too often so you can easily be behind, and if he has KQ, AJT you want him in and betting/bluffing.

hand 4: I either check-call the turn or bet then call his raise, probably check-call since he'll have a wider range of hands that could bet when behind. But I don't like betting then folding if you're up against a LAG.

--greg www.o8poker.com

emptyshell · #6 08-02-2005, 02:43 PM

Hand 1: I agree with you. I think the 4 in addition to the A2 makes a big flop raise the right play.

Hand 2: I wasn't getting the right odds to call. I think maybe I should have known the shortstack was sharing my low draw and folded. On the other hand, against that opponent, my implied odds were awesome.

Hand 3: I considered a raise on the flop for information. The turn bet could have been top two as easily as a set. I'm not sure I see the benefit of jamming the turn, though. It seems like he'll raise allin with anything that's beating me and fold most things that I'm ahead of (the exception being a wrap straight draw). I was hoping the low would hit, obviously, then he might call a big bet with an inferior high hand, assuming I just hit my low. I would have folded to a potsize bet on the river.

Hand 4: Yeah, I think a check-call is usually best here. I was hoping I could get him to lay down a naked low or flush draw with the bet on the turn (two hands he often calls with on the flop, with, I think, the intention to steal on the turn.) The turn raise feels like a set to me, which made the laydown at that point easy.

On hand 4, does anybody think a check-raise on the flop would be better?

raisins · #7 08-02-2005, 02:49 PM

I would play hand #1 more aggressively. If you raise on the flop you can put your opponent to a decision for all the chips on the turn. Most opponents will fold here some of the time and if not you have a lot of equity against just about any hand. Your opponent has to have your low duplicated plus have a set for you to really be in bad shape.

If the flop is checked and he bets out then I would have to think that he folds to a reraise maybe 15% of the time or less for me not to push. This could well be the case if he reads hands well and puts you on a low draw. Considering his river bet he was probably strong here, but I think he might have called an all in on the turn with a relatively weak hand. All the more argument for playing the flop strong.

I like hand #2.

I check call the turn in hand #3 as well. 6 of you saw the flop so I think his hand range is tilted towards very strong high hands. I would bet out on any low card and go all in if I had the opportunity but I might check fold the river. Depends a lot on how he saw me. If I hadn't made it to very many showdowns recently I definitely call a high card river. I think the K though is a very bad card for you as you no longer beat KQ.

I probably would have played hand #4 the same but I read the responses and I like the check call line better. If I had any kind of extra outs, even an extra low card, I would feel better about the bet out and call the raise line. I don't want to play a huge pot with this hand, but I would like to see the river.

regards,

raisins