passive - true...but bad?

jt1 · #1 12-14-2005, 07:35 PM

Villian is unknown

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 3 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.33 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.16 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero calls.

River: (5.16 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG .

Final Pot: 5.16 BB

I forget exactly, but I was probably planning on donking the turn until the Ace came up. I think I chose not to check raise the flop because of my draw. It had me feeling comfortable enough to give a free card and my hand was marginal enough that I wanted to see a SD cheap.

I'm not sure about the turn donk play. I hardly ever do it, but I probably would have here, because, I doubted a check raise would win the pot and like I said I didn't mind giving a free card.

Now that I think about it, donking the flop may be best

shadow29 · #2 12-14-2005, 07:37 PM

I like your line, and I'm generally one to find more aggressive lines. I don't really care that much about giving a free card on this board, as diamonds are going to call regardless.

istewart · #3 12-14-2005, 07:41 PM

I don't really get the turn call. The pot is quite small, you're behind very often, and your weak draw has reverse-implied odds. Explain? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

shadow29 · #4 12-14-2005, 07:44 PM

istewart,

im not convinced that he's behind.

LoaferGee12 · #5 12-14-2005, 07:45 PM

Check-raise the flop anyone?

deception5 · #6 12-14-2005, 07:46 PM

Are you check/folding or check/calling the river? I'm thinking only QJ with a diamond and maybe JT would consider betting again hoping to fold you, but often they will give up at this point. Since king high is likely to be the best hand against a missed flush draw I think he'd check behind with that. I'd be surprised if he fired again with a worse hand though (after you called the scary flop and the scary turn card) so I'm leaning towards check/folding.

Also curious on your thoughts for a turn or river diamond - calling down here if you make the 7-high flush?

LoaferGee12 · #7 12-14-2005, 07:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really get the turn call. The pot is quite small, you're behind very often, and your weak draw has reverse-implied odds. Explain? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

You are not behind here very often and when you are, you usually have outs to the flush. He's either got overs (and a possible flush draw) in which case you are ahead, or he's got a pair (and no flush draw) in which case you are drawing to 9 outs. Yes, there will be some cases where he has a pair+higher flush draw but that's rare.

jt1 · #8 12-14-2005, 07:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really get the turn call. The pot is quite small, you're behind very often, and your weak draw has reverse-implied odds. Explain?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think my diamond draw + the chances he has a smaller pp or KQ with a diamond make a turn call slightly profitable. In other words, I'm getting better than 4-1 on my draw and I may be ahead.

Though, to be honest, I didn't even consider folding. Fighting for small pots is a leak of mine.

istewart · #9 12-14-2005, 07:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't really get the turn call. The pot is quite small, you're behind very often, and your weak draw has reverse-implied odds. Explain? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

You are not behind here very often and when you are, you usually have outs to the flush. He's either got overs (and a possible flush draw) in which case you are ahead, or he's got a pair (and no flush draw) in which case you are drawing to 9 outs. Yes, there will be some cases where he has a pair+higher flush draw but that's rare.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not that rare for him to have a pair and a higher flush draw. I don't know how you can say you're not behind very often after an UTG raise when he keeps betting on this board. Obviously it could be KQ or 66 but this is only a small part of his range. Furthermore even when he has KQ we have to dodge a huge amount of the deck if he has a diamond -- are we even calling on the river UI? -- and if we're calling based on our diamond draw, consider that the pot is only 4 BB, he might fold to a bet or check behind on a diamond river with no flush, and bet or raise when he makes one himself.

jt1 · #10 12-14-2005, 07:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm leaning towards check/folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Only two holdings that I beat would bet them on the river and it would be rare to find a non LAG player that would raise them UTG and bet them UI on the river. I had no reason to believe that villian was a LAG. I doubt very much a TAG would bet them UI on the river.

edit: BTW, If I improve, I'm bet folding the river unless I hit a set.