not taken for a ride this time

[Elizabeth]

I just wanted to share this, and compare to the last hand where I said I got taken for a ride with a pair of kings. Maybe I'm learning!?

online 1/2 game, but with a .25 ante.

Bring-in 2[img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]
Next player: k[img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] calls
Me: (K[img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img])K[img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] raises
two players fold
Q[img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] calls,
A[img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] calls,
bring in folds, and limper calls

4th street:
A[img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] bets
limper: K[img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] calls
Me: (K[img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img])K[img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] I *fold*
middle player: Q[img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] calls

The A[img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] probably either has a 4 flush or a pair of aces, and there's no way I can get heads up. The other king is might be paired, or he might have a straight draw. Anyway, I figure that I'm up against a few quality draws, maybe a higher pair, and my hand looks somewhat dead.

In the end, A[img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] took it down with aces up.

This is one of those barely ahead or far behind situations, right? And multiway, where the best hand I can hope to make is fairly mediocre, too.

Thanks to everyone who replied to my first post. I believe it's helped. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Dr Wogga]

.....but regardless, IMO your decision was fold or raise.

....what was your table image? Tight, loose?
....what was your knowledge of the other players with the K and Q - were they weak calling stations or good players?

The answers to those questions are helpful with respect to saying a fold is in order vs. what might be accomplished coming over the top against the ace. If you had been playing for awhile, what do you think your opponents think of your play? Did you raise frequently during this session? If you hadn't, you might be surprised to see some of the other players fold to your raise. You, also may possibly gain a free card on the next round, since there is a good chance you will act after the Ace and your previous raise might be respected.

....just curious, did the Ace catch an Ace on the river and have the 4 flush, or did he have split Aces from the get-go?

[Tom D]

I like it.

Tom D

[Elizabeth]

At an online 1/2 table, your table image isn't that important. I probably was seen as tight, compared to the live ones. I hadn't played with the other players much to know them either.

If I raised on 4th, the player after me might fold, might not -- he stuck around to the river with an uncoordinated board. As Js would obviously call for 1 bet, and I am 90% certain the middle player would call as well. He's got K-J showing, and called once, which means either he's got a good straight draw, or he likes high cards and won't fold them.

The As led the betting for the hand, so I assume he has split aces. However, he made his second pair on the river, so it's possible he was betting a pair of 6s into the 3 of us. He couldn't have had a 4 flush.

I'm 99% sure I couldn't get headsup action on 4th. I wasn't even sure I could force out a single player.

[patrick dicaprio]

this is a bad fold here and is way too tight. by my count, assuming 8 players in the game and that your raise was to $1, there is at least 8 dollars in the pot on fourth street when it gets to you. so you are getting 8-1 on your call. your hand is much better than 8-1. if you were calling a raise on fourth it might be a good fold.

note that there is no reason to think that the A has aces on third street. if he did he would likely raise. if he was slowplaying his pair of aces on third then he would likely not have bet on fourth. if he is a bad enough player that he would misplay his hand this way then you might be able to get a free card on fifth street which makes it worthwhile to stick around for a while. you dont say what he showed down so i cant tell you for sure but if i were in that game i would have raised on fourth street.

Pat

[patrick dicaprio]

i didnt read this post until after i responded to your main post. knowing what you wrote here the fold is a bad play. there is no reason to assume he had split aces so you may have folded the best hand getting 8-1.

also note that betting into a raiser is exactly the correct play for a hand like 66/A. he bets into you hoping that you will raise to limit the field. so this is even less reason to think he had aces. if i had 66/A i would have bet here every time.

Pat
you cant win at stud if you are not willing to lose some chips with what might be the best hand. you have to invest money so that in the long run you will make more. in a high ante game like the one you are playing you cant play tightly and expect to win your fair share.

when you say that you are not sure if the other player would have folded on fourth street, it seems like you are saying that you didnt want to play because it would not be heads up. that is not the right way to play this hand. you make money when players with much worse hands call you here. if it is heads up that is OK but the risk of players not folding should not turn this raise into a fold.

[rtrombone]

Disclaimer: I'm really just a middle limit hold 'em player but I've recently taken an interest in stud. If any experienced stud player thinks my analysis is incorrect, please enlighten me.

If AJ indeed has a pair of aces, folding is the correct play. If AJ has a 4-flush and all his cards are live, he is a money favorite and folding would not be a bad idea. The problem is, wouldn't a pair of aces have 3-bet on 3rd street? And you know for certain at least 3 of his spades are dead.

If KT has a pair of kings, he has a better hand than you. In a tough game, I might be inclined to fold. But again, there is no reason to believe he has a pair of kings. More likely, he has some kind of straight draw or a small pair in the hole. If he has a small pair, you're in the lead. If he has exactly J Q K 10, he has at most six outs (because at least one 9 and one ace are gone) and you are a significant favorite.

Who knows what Q5 has. Unless I know a player is good, I don't give them any credit when they call.

The final straw is that the limits are so low, it's more likely that people are playing almost anything and that their hands are far weaker than you might think. At least, this was my experience when I played low-limit hold 'em.

Raise on 4th. Call a 3-bet. If AJ catches a scary card on 5th and you don't improve and he bets into you again, well, you'll have to make a decision based on your opinion of him. If he's the type to bet anytime he has a scary board and the other player's hands don't look threatening, hell, I'd pop it again. If he's more conservative, I'd muck.

[patrick dicaprio]

<<<The final straw is that the limits are so low, it's more likely that people are playing almost anything and that their hands are far weaker than you might think. At least, this was my experience when I played low-limit hold 'em>>>

this is very true in low limit stud. it wasnt until i started playing 10-20 that i saw players who knew how to play on third street as a group. and even then there are still plenty of bad plays.

Pat

[34TheTruth34]

In low limit stud, a lot of opponents won't reraise on 3rd street with aces, but will just call and then bet out 4th street.

So when you raise with split kings and a player calls with an ace up and then bets out on 4th street, they almost always have a pair of aces. Needless to say, you have to know your opponents. There are a couple of players that I would never fold against in this situation because they get out of line quite often.

In your particular situation, because the game is online (where I think players are much more aggressive and sometimes out of control) and because of the card he caught (which he knows will look scary to you), there is a much bigger chance that he doesn't actually have the aces. But I think I would still fold, as you're not that big of a favorite over an ace and 4 spades (IMO his second most likely hand) anyway.

What's important here is that you folded right away. It's very important that when you make folds like this, you do it early in the hand. Whatever you do, don't wait until 6th street to decide he has the aces and fold then. Well played.

[Hootie McBoob]

"At an online 1/2 table, your table image isn't that important."

disagree. obviously it depends on the game's flavor, but table image is really important. underestimating its importance leaves those smallish pots on the table that buy you tons of antes and bringins. i realize specific incidents don't make universal law, but winning a couple hands with a pair or two small pairs against a scary board really pays off when you have a monster within a couple hands of the lame winner. i think table image is very underestimated in the online game. these are often "no foldem" but take a couple people down and it's bluffing time.