Gigabet unplugged: percentage payouts and the value of disparate goals

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
The "correctness" of a -EV call is influenced primarily by the following conditions:

1. Calling and winning makes you a big stack
2. Calling and winning eliminates a player close to the money
3. Calling and losing will not eliminate you
4. The blinds are big

[/ QUOTE ]


Great post Irie.

I have a question though, that I didn't see addressed in your post.

There is no mention in your post on what range of hands would be worth making a -EV call, assuming all the above criteria are met. In other words, what is the worst hand you could conceivably call with in a situation like this? I believe in the original discussion by Gigabet, he called with Q3 offsuit. At what point would a hand be TOO bad to call, even if all the other factors were favorable for making a -EV call?

[The Yugoslavian]

32o is the worst hand that qualifies. Oh, and I bet in some fairly rare situations 1 card would be enough...or even no cards when you're basically chip dumping to a certain stack to maintain a favorable stack configuration.

It's not always about your hand...

In the Q3 example...Gigabet didn't call...he pushed. Part of the whole move was to isolate if possible.

Yugoslav

[chumdawg]

I watched a $1000 Step 5 last night that Gigabet played. I'm interested in hearing how this one fits into the discussion.

I believe the first hand Gigabet played was the hand right before this one. Blinds 25/50. Gigabet openraised to 125 from middle position. Someone reraised to 500, and Gigabet folded. A player commented "great read" and the raiser replied "indeed." Then this hand:

***** Hand History for Game 2192953943 *****
50/100 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 13013976) - Sat Jun 11 22:15:50 EDT 2005
Table Step 5 983602 (Real Money) -- Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: worldsgrtest (820)
Seat 3: Gigabet (840)
Seat 4: rakeitall222 (920)
Seat 5: AllDayTJ (1675)
Seat 6: RPG (1190)
Seat 7: mchern02 (1636)
Seat 8: mikelokey (477)
Seat 9: curiosity (1747)
Seat 10: NUTZREALBIG (695)
mchern02 posts small blind (25)
mikelokey posts big blind (50)
** Dealing down cards **
curiosity folds.
NUTZREALBIG folds.
worldsgrtest folds.
Gigabet raises (125) to 125
rakeitall222 folds.
AllDayTJ folds.
RPG folds.
mchern02 folds.
mikelokey raises (150) to 200
Gigabet calls (75)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 7c, 9h, 4d ]
mikelokey bets (277)
mikelokey is all-In.
Gigabet calls (277)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Qs ]
** Dealing River ** : [ Ac ]
Creating Main Pot with $979 with mikelokey
** Summary **
Main Pot: 979 |
Board: [ 7c 9h 4d Qs Ac ]
worldsgrtest balance 820, didn't bet (folded)
Gigabet balance 363, lost 477 [ Kh 7h ] [ a pair of sevens -- Ac,Kh,Qs,7h,7c ]
rakeitall222 balance 920, didn't bet (folded)
AllDayTJ balance 1675, didn't bet (folded)
RPG balance 1190, didn't bet (folded)
mchern02 balance 1611, lost 25 (folded)
mikelokey balance 979, bet 477, collected 979, net +502 [ Kc Ks ] [ a pair of kings -- Ac,Kc,Ks,Qs,9h ]
curiosity balance 1747, didn't bet (folded)
NUTZREALBIG balance 695, didn't bet (folded)



About three hands later, Gigabet busted out.

[microbet]

I might think the 7 is good here.

[Freudian]

I think that hand has very little in common with this discussion. Here Gigabet opens the pot and the losing this hand doesn't put him on the line. He isn't gambling with chips that are meaningless to him.

I think this is one of his standard plays. He opens with 2.5xBB in early position when he feels the situation (more than the cards) is right.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
I might think the 7 is good here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have to call that flop with so little the small stack is pushing into you....you even have 2nd pair!

I'm not sure Giga played this poorly..especially given that he had gotten raised off of a hand not long ago. Also, when a small stack comes back at his t125 raise....he's sort of committed anyway unless he is pretty sure this particular opponent is only playing big pairs.

Yugoslav

[The Yugoslavian]

Oh yeah...I agree...that hand has nothing to do with the discussion..but meh....like 90% of what's posted on here doesn't anyway.

Yugoslav

[imported_cocarondelle]

I don't agree when you say that we got the "uninteresting part"; Playing with a big stack is not a hidden secret of poker, and playing a lot will get you used to how to do it (even if I ' m pretty sure GIG has some nice tricks unknown to many players... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]).
The part that Irie was developing (even if the idea of being more Agg in bubble is not new) is well written and comprehensive, and the "gigabet dilemma" seems really interesting, even if you don't know right now how to use a big stack.
You can't say:"I don't know how to use a big stack , so those concepts are BS."try to think:"this stuff is brilliant,how can I reach this level".

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]

You can't say:"I don't know how to use a big stack , so those concepts are BS."try to think:"this stuff is brilliant,how can I reach this level".

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem to have missed the point that Giga is the big stack even before making the call.

[chumdawg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I might think the 7 is good here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have to call that flop with so little the small stack is pushing into you....you even have 2nd pair!

I'm not sure Giga played this poorly..especially given that he had gotten raised off of a hand not long ago. Also, when a small stack comes back at his t125 raise....he's sort of committed anyway unless he is pretty sure this particular opponent is only playing big pairs.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

I was more interested in the openraise than anything else. Or rather, the call of the minraise. Don't you figure that when you flatcall the raise, the rest of the shortstack's chips are going in on the flop?

Giga's stack was a little less than average himself. Given that the hand sortof played itself out the way it had to, is K7s the kind of hand you want to risk the better part of your stack with here? That's what I'm getting at. What value did his "block" have here? And was getting half of it in against a re-raiser, with K7s, a good idea?