Basic Pot Odds Questions - Please Help a New Guy

[DarrenJG]

As for the first question, what I meant was that the pot was $50 as the bet was to me. In other words, IF I call, the pot would then be $60 with my additional money. This being the case, are the odds 5 to 1 or 6 to 1.

It seems that you're saying, in this case, the odds are 5 to 1. Correct?

Thanks.

[ QUOTE ]
As for the first question, what I meant was that the pot was $50 as the bet was to me. In other words, IF I call, the pot would then be $60 with my additional money. This being the case, are the odds 5 to 1 or 6 to 1.

It seems that you're saying, in this case, the odds are 5 to 1. Correct?

Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, I don't know why this is getting so muddled (I'm not blaming you, I had a similar problem when I first learned the concept) but I'm going to try to clear it up here the best I can.

Let’s start preflop. Say 4 people put $10 in. Right now, the pot is $40.

Now on the flop someone bets $10 and you are next to act. Just take the $40 that was in before the flop and add the $10 the bettor just put in. Pot is now $50.

Now it’s your turn. You have to put $10 into a pot of $50, so the odds are 5 to 1.

So when you ask “IF I call, the pot will be $60” then no, you do not count it as $60. Whatever you have not yet put in the pot does not count.

Just tell me if this doesn’t make sense.


PS--I played at paradise poker yesterday for the first time and noticed that on the top of the screen they have a "Pot + Bets" amount. Checking that out might help you to see where you should get the figure for what is currently in the pot.

[DarrenJG]

Yeah, that's completely clear and it makes sense. Thanks much.

Any thouhgts on my second question? I know it's more complicated and cumbersome, but I was trying to be somewhat precise with it.

Thanks again,
Darren

[BradleyT]

[ QUOTE ]
But perhaps, TOP is just saying when making the FIRST call and you KNOW a raise will come behind then you should factor it in, in which case you may be advised to just fold on the first call.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is correct. In EP you often have to figure in a possible raise behind so instead of calling $10 into the $50 pot it might really be $20 into a $70 pot.

[ QUOTE ]
But are they saying once you are raised behind that you should calculate pot odds based on both of your calls (which would likely decrease pot odds), and thereby lead to more situations in which you might call a bet only to fold to a subsequent raiser in the same round?

[/ QUOTE ]

Once you call one bet it's almost never wrong to call the second bet (barring a read such as he only raises with top set and I'm drawing dead with 2 pair or someone between me and the raiser might get tricky and 3-bet it).

[DarrenJG]

Thanks.

This is precisely my confusion. What you are saying is if a raise comes behind you, then your pot odds would actually be 3.5 to 1 since you're putting a total of $20 into a $70 pot for the round (under your scenario).

This runs counter to what Keyser seems to be saying on his last post. His understanding is that the first $10 before you were raised is already in the pot and gone - so the pot odds would actually be 7 to 1 - an additional $10 into a $70 pot, despite the fact that you already put in $10 earlier in the round.

I'm not sure which one is correct.

Darren, I have a question for you - have you actually played much poker? It almost seems like you're so weighed down with information from TOP, but no poker experience to relate it to.

[ QUOTE ]

This runs counter to what Keyser seems to be saying on his last post. His understanding is that the first $10 before you were raised is already in the pot and gone - so the pot odds would actually be 7 to 1 - an additional $10 into a $70 pot, despite the fact that you already put in $10 earlier in the round.

I'm not sure which one is correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

To answer this question, there are two sides to the sword. You are asking if you should call 1 raise. The answer is, of course. Like you said, if you had odds to call the first bet (5 to 1), then folding now (8-1) would make no sense. New pot odds should be considered each decision, even if it's in the same round of betting.

HOWEVER...

You are only getting 8-1 because you've already dumped $10 into the pot. You're really paying $20 to see the next card, coming to 4-to-1 on your money. The only relevance to this second side is if you can predict someone raising behind you. This should make more sense when it actually happens to you.

Here's a good example:

Same situation as before, starting with a $40 pot. P1 bets ($10), you call ($10), P3 raises ($20), P1 re-raises ($30). Now you are to act, required to call another $20. Basic pot odds would say specify that you're putting $20 into a $100 pot, but I would probably assume that P3 is going to cap. Therefore, when it's all said and done, you will actually putting another $30 into a $120 pot.

[DarrenJG]

"Darren, I have a question for you - have you actually played much poker? It almost seems like you're so weighed down with information from TOP, but no poker experience to relate it to."

I've got some experience under my belt and I'm trying to sharpen the theory. This is just a fine distinction I was trying to clarify on a fundamental point since TOP was not entirely clear and people's understanding on the forums seems to differ. I just wanted to make sure what I've been doing is theoretically correct - better than just guessing and wondering.

Actually, judging by your response, the answer to my question is BOTH of the suggested answers I mentioned. This is not exactly crystal clear stuff.

So, it sounds like you're saying the pot odds are NOT really calculated cumulatively, since once you put money in the pot it is gone, HOWEVER, if you anticipate a raise behind then you should AT THAT POINT calculate in the added call you know you'll end up making. But if you get a SURPRISE raise behind you, the pot odds for that next call will just be based on that one call.

Is this correct?

Thanks.

I think you might already know this but I'll go through the first part of your second question.

[ QUOTE ]
…when calculating pot odds for a call, and then someone raises behind you, are your pot odds thereafter calculated on a cumulative basis for that round? For instance, when it comes back around to you, and say you intend to call the raise, are the odds based on the sum of both of your calls?

[/ QUOTE ]

Best way to explain this is probably just to take the example I used from the first question and extend it to having someone raising behind you.

As before, preflop there is $40 in the pot.

One person bets, and (as we just discussed) you call the $10 into the total pot of $50 for 5 to 1 (total pot now $60).

But after you call, the next player raises $10, so he makes the total pot $80. (the $60 from before plus the $20 more he just put in)

The original bettor calls the $10 more. Total pot now $90.

Now it’s your turn. You have to call $10 more into a pot of $90, which gives you 9 to 1 odds.

Your original call of the $10 is now simply an amount that is in the total pot.

Sorry, I don’t really want to tackle the next parts of your question because it’s been a while since I’ve read TOP. I’m sure someone else can answer it.

[DarrenJG]

I see what you are saying, and I always figured this is the way to calculate pot odds with a raise behind. However, it appears to me that TOP seems to say otherwise. I'm not sure what is proper.

Unless I am totally missing his point, Bradley, who posted also, seems to say that under your scenario, the odds would be 4.5 to 1, rather than 9 to 1. (Since your total money into the pot for the round would be $20 into a $90 pot.)

This is my confusion. I'm not sure which it is, and this obviously makes a huge difference.

Thoughts?

[Al P]

Well the current odds are 9:1 but your "real" odds were 4.5:1 because the total for the round was $20 for a $90 pot.

So before you called the $10 for $50 you needed to tell yourself, "this could cost me $20 for $XX" so my odds are potentially worse than 5:1. But since you have people behind, when they just call you'll be getting 6:1 or 7:1 on your call sometimes too.

It's up to you and your reads on the players to make correct assumptions during play and adjust your odds somewhat accordingly. If you're at a super aggro table and in EP you should scale your odds downwards (worse pot odds) and if you're at a table of calling stations you should scale them upwards (better pot odds).